One More Reason to Test for Adenovirus

Tere,

I had wanted to respond to this from the first day you posted, but have to be very careful what I say as there are a few that depend on dragon sales as their sole income, who DO NOT want this information out there and have worked overtime in promoting others to sell their infected stock too.

I commend you for taking the stand you have, following what the vet researchers that have worked with this ask and not falling prey to the business as usual attitude that is promoted by other breeders, who this is their sole means of income so can not let go for the sake of the species and do the right thing.

As you said

The only way we can get some control over this virus is to test our animals and learn from what we find

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and also not breed them or expose non positive animals to them. This is what DR Wentz has been promoting since 2001

If it continues to spread throughout the industry, it could ruin the market. For these reasons, ethical consideration should always be considered if an animal is diagnosed with adenovirus. The main question is should any animal be suspected of or diagnosed with Adenoviral infection be sold or bred? At this time, this author believes the answer is no. Since many of the asymptomatic carriers can live a long and natural life, they can be kept separate. Precautions must be taken to prevent the accidental spread of the virus if one chooses to keep positive animals.

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back then there were only a few areas of the country that had positive animals and it would have been easy to contain. But that breeder elected to dumped a large amount of their infected stock to the public and other breeders and some of those other breeders elected to sweep the issue under the rug and also sell stock they had that was infected... which bring us to what we have in not only this country, but also throughout Europe too.

Denise said

I only wish everyone had her integrity.
A lot of people wouldn't say anything. What you've done is right and brave, just the person I've always known you are.

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I wish just 2 breeders back then and two now had the same integrity, then I do not think Wendy or Tere and many others would be dealing with what they and their dragons have had too.

Marissa said

It seems very possible that if some breeders are selling off babies from adeno positive parents, that could infect and devastate breeding projects EVERYWHERE

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they did, it could and it has- just as Dr Wentz warned would happen 6 years ago when he present to that to the INTERNATIONAL HERPETOLOGICAL SYMPOSIUM. I think it only a matter of time now before everyone realizes where this came from and who was instrumental in spreading it.

Marissa, no breeder should have carte blanche, that is what created this mess to begin with and I encourage you to talk to ANY admin or webmaster that it seems allows that and if they continue that thinking, there are plenty of other sites out there that would welcome you and others that do not want to help some breeder for the sake of $$$ ruin a species.

Tere, again, I am sorry you and your dragons that are you beloved pets first and foremost, got caught up in this. I am sure you will see the naysayers swooping in on you also and trying to hush you up .... just consider the source and what their personal agenda is... time will expose them

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You said it way better than I did. Thank you, Cheri.

CheriS said:

But that breeder elected to dumped a large amount of their infected stock to the public and other breeders and some of those other breeders elected to sweep the issue under the rug and also sell stock they had that was infected... which bring us to what we have in not only this country, but also throughout Europe too.

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Cheri-

I know I've seen it posted somewhere, but can't locate it now. How long has the virus been in the U.S., and where did it start? Maybe if people had a clearer understanding that this virus isn't some "virus of the week", and that it has spread the way it has...and that there really is a way of tracing back where it came from, they would understand the gravity of the situation.

I will try to summarize what I know, although everytime I put any of this information up is starts the snide comments from breeders and their "buddies" that do not want this known for obvious reasons.

Some history for those interested
Contrary to what some would like other to believe and continue to lie over, Adenovirus has been in the wild population and other countries captive breed population since 1981, but very limited- not epidemic like it is becoming in the US and now Europe too. The reason people can not find prior history is 10 they do not want to, 2)that it either is not online (Australia was not big on computers in the 80's) but in other country publications AND 3)they were not pogona then, but Amphibolurus and the people claiming it do not even know that.

It showed up in the US heavily in bearded dragons that I know of, that were imported from Germany in 1997-2000 to Florida, in the german giants and redflame lines, later the orange glow line and those were all crossed together. Don't panic there were lines from the both GG and redflame that were healthy/clear of the virus so do not assume if you have a dragon from those line, that it is infected. Some of those were shipped back to Europe *(this is significant later) but also sold heavily in the New England (PA, NJ, NY) and Southern(FL, NC. SC, GA) states at reptile shows and also a group went to Arizona. Still it could have been contained, as it was pretty well known what lines and who had it back in 2001-2002. But again, some breeders elected to continue to sell stock they knew were infected.

Among those also were some rarer infected morphs coming back into the US from Europe, mainly Belgium and England, but the same infected dragons were also shipped to Japan, Sri Lanki and Italy, so you had outbreaks there also. Many people thought these were weaker animals due to inbreeding as they were all related, but I am pretty sure the fact they were infected with adenovirus played a huge role in the higher death rate of the offspring and the failure to thrive of the ones that did survive. True they were inbreed, breeders did that on purpose to have the trait which even with sickly looking dragons they were selling for $750-$1500, but we now know that they also were carriers of the virus and as far as I know, those tested even this year have all been positive. It was even noted as early as 2003 by a breeder breeding them, on Kingsnake.com, that they were failing to thrive and had much higher mortality rates... still people bought them for the novelty and added them to their existing colonies, infecting their own prior clear dragons if they dodged the other lines earlier. This is where many of the breeders in the west got infected from.

It is interesting that at the same time adeno was spreading so rapidly in the US, Orient and Europe that some of the new morphs were showing up in the us and testing positive for adeno, buy other normal imports were clear......it really makes me wonder if the two are not related somehow?

So, now it is not unusual for someone testing more than a few pets dragons, to find at least one infected or more since they come from those same well known online breeders...... that is what it seems some breeders set out to make happen a few years back and they continue to do so still, knowing they are selling adeno positive animals. Some breeders having this are now and back then, have tried to spin the tale that it is okay, everyone's dragon carry adenovirus and it is not a problem, or the worst I have heard is to infect all dragons so the ones that survive are immune and it is not a problem anymore, that is really stupid thinking, don't believe it. First, they have no way of knowing that is going to happen and ever indicator we have is that this virus can be very destructive to some young baby dragons and can infect any dragon in contact with them or any age for years to come. Secondly, as more people test and it does show they are clear, it dispels the falsehood that infected breeders use to justify their actions in selling and spreading adenovirus. NOT ALL DRAGONS HAVE IT AND ARE INFECTED contrary to what some breeders want to convince others of. There are owners and breeders with totally clear colonies as this thread alone has shown and I know that for a fact as I have seen and helped with some of the PRC and fecal test. There are even some very large breeders that have never had an infected dragon in their collection out west as they never bought from the breeders in the south and east that have spread this, but I know that it also is showing up in collections out there now, since so many newer breeders from the past few years have bought dragons from the south and east and were not aware that there was a problem with those lines.

That is the history of what I know and how it has spread. 2002 is was still contained in a few colonies/breeders, 2004 it spread significantly, and 2006 it blooms to a massive level. I suspect with the amount of dragons we know just a few breeders are putting out right now that are infected, it will be chronic next year....... but at least now people are testing and we are also seeing there are many clear colonies still. I feel especially sorry for people like Tere, Wendy, Brandon and Suzanne who had to deal with this when they were innocent victims also, not to mention all the dragons.... but commend each of them for being cautious and doing the right thing to help NOT spread it. It tells you who really cares about the animals and who only sees them as dollar signs.

Not only has Dr Wentz advised not to breed or sell infected ones, but also Dr Elliott Jacobson, University of Florida and leading herp researcher or IBD and paramyxo, who has done what he can to curtail the spin doctor's tales of everything is fine and business as usual. His letter to the community can be found here Dr Jacobson's letter to the bearded dragon community And still... some breeders tell you all is well and the rest of us are out to "get" them!!

One final note: Do not trust ANYONE that has personal or financial interest in this matter.... even me, look to the professionals and that is not a breeder or people in the human medical field, but the vet/researchers that know and have worked with reptilian virus already, which are very different from human virus. No one has the answers about this virus right now, not that it needs a another virus or parasite to be a problems, or that it is something else killing them or that ANY University is telling them it is okay to breed/sell them, that is not true and each person that has claimed these things and we have checked with their source, denies they ever told them any such thing, in fact they claim they told them the opposite.

Cheri-

I appreciate you informing us, even with the probability of reprisal. This one of the most informative posts I've seen concerning this virus in a long time. Thank you, as I can tell you put a lot of time into this.

In my own personal experience, this information would have been very nice to have a couple of years ago. It certainly would have changed my mind about where I purchased from.

CheriS said:

in the german giants and redflame lines, later the orange glow line and those were all crossed together.

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As well as this:

CheriS said:

but also sold heavily in the New England (PA, NJ, NY) and Southern(FL, NC. SC, GA) states

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Those breeders who sold infected dragons, and their blatant disregard for other people, their dragons, and this community is absolutely heartbreaking.

I for one would like a list of breeders that have sold infected dragons. I hope I have not purchased one of them. There are laws to protect us from harmful negligence and those who sold dragons that they knew were infected.

calientedragons said:

Hi Denise,

I am here is CA also I am in need of some info from you, I have about 22 Dragons I need tested and I have no idea were to go, Can you please email me with you Vet info where you had yours tested? [email protected]

I would greatly apprietiate it! I live in Rancho Cucamonga area so I am not so far from you, I have been having a hard time finding a vet that really knows much about Dragons..

Thanks so much for any help,

Heidi

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Sorry, I've been out in the Jeep so I didn't see this until just now. I actually think there is a vet way closer to you than the one I use in the Valley, but I'll send you information in the morning when my brain is working again. I'll also see if my vet can refer you to someone closer.

Tere,

Only one thing I want to stress, do not assume that all GG, Redflame or Orange Glow lines are a problem, they are not, in fact the first generations of RedFlames were some of the most heartiest and largest dragons ever produced as are many of the GG lines. If they were already out of the Florida breeders colony in the mid-late 90's they were safe and the problem in the Orange Glow lines started in 2000.

Same with the areas, there are many good, decent and clean breeders in the states listed above, just there are also thick outbrreaks of it there also. Example, I have a RedFlame cross from a New Jersey breeder and tested clear as many of his siblings have and their offsprings have and almost all my dragon are German Giant crosses. On the other hand, there are some other states involved early on like IL which is where the first case we are aware was documented and confirmed from.

The above infomation was where the BULK of the virus cases came from, that has spread it to many of the popular lines and breeders today.

Ok, second wind. I talked to a couple of friends closer to you to see who they use, and you'll have to decide who is closer and more convienent for you.
I use Studio City Animal Hospital. All the vets there handle exotics, and I believe they all handle reptiles too.
There are 2 vets closer to you, one in Yorba Linda, one in Pasadena. Dr. Stien in Pasadena is supposed to be one of the best (he used to work with my vet in Studio City). The phone number I have for him is 626/441-1137. He's at Raymond Street Animal hospital.
The Yorba Linda vet, who I don't know personally, Dr. Greek, is also supposed to fairly familiar with Adenovirus, and is very familiar with bearded dragons. You can find him at Yorba Linda Veterinary hospital, 714/777-2314.
What I can tell you is that in my experience, finding someone that knows a lot about Adenovirus may be difficult. Finding someone with the ability to do the PCR testing for it isn't. Once you have your results back, then you'll find the rest of the information you might need in the adeno threads on this forum.
Someone told me a while back that there is a vet in Riverside that handles reptiles, but I can't find the information they sent me. I'll make a few phone calls in the morning and see what I can find out. There is also supposed to be a place in Loma Linda, both places way closer to you, so hopefully I'll be able to get some information on one of them to pass along.

calientedragons said:

Hi Denise,

I am here is CA also I am in need of some info from you, I have about 22 Dragons I need tested and I have no idea were to go, Can you please email me with you Vet info where you had yours tested? [email protected]

I would greatly apprietiate it! I live in Rancho Cucamonga area so I am not so far from you, I have been having a hard time finding a vet that really knows much about Dragons..

Thanks so much for any help,

Heidi

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virus.

Does anyone know about the florida oranges or the sunfire dragon ranch for animals purchased in the last two years.

Naysayers, Breeders and their “buddies”… Nonsense.

I have a problem with people who tend to present only the information that supports their opinions or beliefs. Surely, we can make the time to address this publicly…

I have no problems talking about Weis’s first generation Red Flames that were imported - but tracing the adenovirus outbreaks in the USA will take us well before Pete was even breeding bearded dragons.

Do you really want to play this game?

fstop2100a said:

Does anyone know about the florida oranges or the sunfire dragon ranch for animals purchased in the last two years.

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I can't tell you anything specific about either line, but I can tell you this; The only way you can be sure your dragons aren't infected is to test, no matter what line or who their breeder is. The bottom line is that the blood lines avaliable in this country are limited, and the chance that 1 breeder that has stock from multiple sources is completely clean would be pretty impossible to gauge. Take my situation, I had all 15 of my adults and subadults tested, 1 test came back positive. In the case of the positive dragon, I also own her sister and clutch mate, her sister tested negative. Does it make a whole lot of sense to me? No, its just the way it works.
I was a bit stunned when the info about Adeno first hit this forum. Like most here, I was really confused about some of the conflicting information and my vet didn't know anything about it. I spent a week or so contacting every single person I could find on the west coast trying to find information, and then if I could, calling them on the phone. The one thing I heard over and over from people was to contact Dr. Jacobson. I know that other people heard the same thing I did, got the same replies, and after you hear it 20 times, it doesn't take long to figure out that the guy to go to on this issue is Dr. Jacobson.
Then, I got an email from Dr. Jacobson on what tests were accurate, called my vet to see if she could handle the tests, and she could, at least the PCR testing which is sent out to a lab, and then I got tested.

I'll say this. I went into this with an open mind. I read the emails from Cheri and Wendy, I read all the emails from Sunshine. I read all the information I could find on the web, and I had no clue who was being honest and who wasn't. I started emailing people, Herp vets, veterinary schools, researchers, anyone that I thought could make some sense out of it for me but wasn't connected to the sources I found on this forum because I wanted an opinion that was completely unbiased. This is what I heard, "contact Dr. Jacobson" from every single person except 1. That last one simply told me that they had no clue who was researching Adenovirus, the only thing they could tell me was it wasn't them.
So, my opinion, obviously, is that the person most likely to have the information we need is Dr. Jacobson, and if he recommends testing, then testing it is, and I will not buy a dragon who has not been tested, nor will I sell a dragon whose parents have not been tested and are negative.

Cheri,
sounds like you have some sort of personal agenda against those who question your opinions. Your paragraph on the "exotic" morph and it's history is totally inaccurate. Where did you get that information from? If you want to know the REAL history, I would be more than happy to enlighten you, since I am the one who got the whole morph going. Josh

CheriS said:

back then there were only a few areas of the country that had positive animals and it would have been easy to contain. But that breeder elected to dumped a large amount of their infected stock to the public and other breeders and some of those other breeders elected to sweep the issue under the rug and also sell stock they had that was infected... which bring us to what we have in not only this country, but also throughout Europe too.

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If you are wanting to trace down the source and find someone, two, or four people to blame for the adeno outbreak, then you need to start using names. Holding back information and trying to warn us who we should not buy from is not going to help. Who are you pointing fingers at?

CheriS said:

It showed up in the US heavily in bearded dragons that I know of, that were imported from Germany in 1997-2000 to Florida, in the german giants and redflame lines, later the orange glow line and those were all crossed together. Don't panic there were lines from the both GG and redflame that were healthy/clear of the virus so do not assume if you have a dragon from those line, that it is infected. Some of those were shipped back to Europe *(this is significant later) but also sold heavily in the New England (PA, NJ, NY) and Southern(FL, NC. SC, GA) states at reptile shows and also a group went to Arizona. Still it could have been contained, as it was pretty well known what lines and who had it back in 2001-2002. But again, some breeders elected to continue to sell stock they knew were infected.

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I am curious and wanting to know where you received the information you listed that has you pointing towards the Eastern states? Since another reference was made about someone in the above quote, who is this person that had the virus?

Speaking with a few people myself, it seems that false positive tests have popped up with this virus as well as false negatives. Until a truly accurate test is created, it will be very difficult to get a handle on the situation. I need to make a few contacts about this virus.

I said "On the other hand, there are some other states involved early on like IL which is where the first case we are aware was documented and confirmed from.
The above infomation was where the BULK of the virus cases came from, that has spread it to many of the popular lines and breeders today."

You must have missed that sentence. I said where the bulk came from that have infected so many of the popular lines. Suzanne's dragons came from the same breeder that Dr Wentz did all his studies from, Dr Johnson also saw his cases from there, as did the U of Florida, Louisiana or Kansas State. HerpVetConnection put a link on their site to contact us from tracking adenovirus and I do remember having a conversation with you in 2003 about those cases when you saw a post then mentioning adenovirus

Do you really want to play this game?

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No, I do not want to play any games, I think that has been done enough with owners/buyers the past few years.

Surely, we can make the time to address this publicly…

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Please do, I have not seen anything addressed publicly yet and welcome your comments since you seem to know names, dates, line etc, I would assume you are aware of something that many others are not and we would all appreciate hearing.

Cheri, please name the breeder(s) you are implying to have been a major factor in the spreading of this virus.

Josh, my opinion on this is the same as Dr Jacobson and Dr Wentz, want to tell us why you personally have a problem with that and want to make it me having a personal agenda for agreeing with them and not supporting those who sell them to an unsuspecting public? WHO really has a personal agenda here and why?

People are not going to just blind accept someone saying everything is fine, give me your money or pushing something down their throat, and blowing smoke. More are going to be like Denise now that they are aware this is going on out there, do their own checking and come to their OWN conclusions and I am glad they are!

As for the "exotic" morphs you claim is inaccurate, my info comes from Paul Morlock of CaptiveCreations and Retail Sales Rep. for Sandfire Dragon Ranch, most of it was posted openly on Kingsnake.com and many people here will remember it. You can probably find it in the archives there.. so you need to take up with him "who got the whole morph going" as this was long before anyone heard of you and he claimed it was him.

And there are plenty that have tested positive for adenovirus, I know you are aware of that. So what part is inaccurate? If anything is not as Paul said or owners that have tested are not positive, please let me know and I will check it further. who knows, maybe he lied on a public forum, although I can not see why he would about admitting that the early translucent were sickly, died young or did not thrive unless it were true, who would make up something like that and no where in talking about them does he mention you being the one "who got the whole morph going".. either way it does not matter to me.

I decided to save you and others that want to verify my comments so time, since you have stated they are not accurate, here are some of them from Mr Morlock about the early translucent.
Original trans not surviving to adulthood
http://forums.kingsnake.com/viewarch.php?id=255287,256384&key=2003 FROM 2003

The animals we purchased were actually a group (the whole clutch), not just one. Out of that group only 2 animals displayed the gene. Unfortunately those 2 animals did not make it to adulthood. The remaining animals were split into 2 groups. One group bred to the Sandfire line, and the other to our hypo/pastel line. The resulting hets were then bred and the offspring are the animals that we have been selling

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More not surviving to adulthood
http://forums.kingsnake.com/viewarch.php?id=255287,256077&key=2003

That same year I know of 3 other breeders who also hatched translucets, one each. Unfortunately for them they did not make to adulthood. This leads me to believe this trait is much more widespread

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He is asked about more than the normal amount of them not surviving
http://forums.kingsnake.com/viewarch.php?id=255287,256639&key=2003

Posted by: CheriS at Sun Nov 23 20:32:03 2003 [ Email Message ]

The other breeder I know of had two hatch like this last year, one of each sex, the female did not survive, the male did so far as I know. Does it seem that there are more than the normal amount of them that are not surviving?

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AND HE ANSWERS HERE
http://forums.kingsnake.com/viewarch.php?id=255287,256639&key=2003

Posted by: paulmorlock at Sun Nov 23 22:22:10 2003 [ Email Message ]

True, that's the main reason we have spent 2 years producing hets, to get that trait into healthy animals

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Sure looks to me like there were some serious thriving problems there since they were dying! If sibling were breed to other lines and those offspring then breed back together, that inbreeding

Michael, I am not trying to warn you who not to buy from, the breeder that contributed so much to spreading this is not and has not bred or sold beaded dragons since 2002. Other breeders that are known positive and I had proof of it and they were still selling them and not notifying buyers was disclosed many months ago and there is thread on FC about them, that is Sunshine Dragons and some other had also been named as having positive dragons come from them, by others than me on other threads.

Other breeder who have multiple people who bought dragons from them and have told me they tested positive, deny they have had or have any positive dragons or sell them, stating the people must have gotten it elsewhere and also that everyone has it.......... yet they also raise hell anytime anyone post about it on here or anywhere else... you do the math. Those that are positive, need to tell you themselves if they want you to know who their dragons came from, they have the paperwork to prove it, I do not. If they are not sellling them unknown to people, I am not going to say who they are. That is their personal choice and I respect it, they are still doing the right thing and not spreading it. The simple thing is quarantine and test any new dragon you add to your colony.... surprise, breeders lie for a sale or people need to protect themselves and the dragons that already have, as it is very evident, the sellers are not going to. The whole thing is there are some very angry breeders now that people are testing and questioning.... NOW WHY WOULD THEY BE?

"New England (PA, NJ, NY) and Southern(FL, NC. SC, GA) states at reptile shows" as that is where the original breeder that spread it so heavily sold many of their dragons at and people who in turn bred those, sold their offspring at. Where does that info come from? herpvetconnection.com vets and owners that saw the red blurb on the home page to contact us as we were trying to track it, it is still up there also. Those were the states that had multiple case confirmed by necropsy and further liver studies and later the fecal test was developed for confirming it in live dragons. Over and over the same origination point came up with few exceptions and the same lines. There was also many post on KS that lead back to the same people, but that was pre 2002 and they do not have archives for then, so I can not give you those, unless I am missing were those are stored.

Even now, so many of the breeders that have tested positive are in those areas or their dragons that tested positive come from those areas.
Just ask those disclosing they are testing positive, they are not trying to hide it, it's the buyers and beginner breeders that are being honest. They have no reason to lie or a personal agenda to hide it.

Tere, about what I told you in that first sentence I posted..... LOL, I rest my case!

Junkyard said:

Speaking with a few people myself, it seems that false positive tests have popped up with this virus as well as false negatives. Until a truly accurate test is created, it will be very difficult to get a handle on the situation. I need to make a few contacts about this virus.

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Does this refer to the PCR testing as well as the fecal testing?

I am thinking now, Iowa State University has one of the best veterinary science programs in the country, perhaps there would a contact there that would be a good person for me to get ahold of. If nothing else, maybe someone there could walk my local vet (who does not deal much with reptiles, but is very willing to learn, and is a darn good guy in general) through the PCR procedure. Best case scenario, perhaps there is someone there that can help me sort through all of this mess and get to the matter at heart - just what is killing these dragons and what we can ALL do to help stop it.

We can run around and point fingers all day, both good and bad....God knows I'd like to know who is responsible for bringing this to the near "epidemic" level it is now. If those who face major financial losses would have taken the initiative as Tere has BEFORE it got to this point and done something, none of us would be in this position today. This is very true, but it's too late to do anything about that now.

I think at this point, if possible, we need to try to focus on working together to find something that can be done about it NOW. Some, obviously, think they have too much at stake to admit there IS a problem in their colonies. Stop nitpicking and worrying about he said/she said.....the rest of us all need to get off from our butts and DO SOMETHING, before it's too late.