Fla Fish And Wildlife

Let's face it, litigation is expensive. How many people are going to spend $15K+ to fight a small fine? Especially from someone out of state who will have travel expenses on top of that. F/W knows that is not likely and can probably get away with anything they like with impunity. I think the best course may be to contact the actual commissions in charge of FWCC (http://myfwc.com/commission/index.html). Let them know what is going on. Those are the people who actually make the decisions there.

to have a vendors association provide money and file a class action suit against not only F/W but I would go after the agent as well. I realize that these agencies have a built in formula of wearing you down financially if you stand alone trying to fight the system, but their are avenues with a good bulldog attorney, to go after them. It is something that may happen as yet.

If Wayne does not provide some security to insure his vendors from these types of liabilities, then people will not venture out to take the risk of having their livestock seized as well as themselves.

Had Morti not gotten the $ 500. to bail him out, what would his wife have done considering that they live in KY. Its really a terrible burdon placed on people , good people who rely on the good faith of the state of Fl only to be thrown into a nightmare. Fortunately, for me, I am immune from F/W, and I can afford to be more vocal, but I would fight them had it been me.

If each vendor just gave a $ 1.00, we could afford an attorney at these shows to at least advise us of our rights as to what we should or should not say when confronted with a possible admission of guilt. Had Morti not mentioned the fact that his snakes were on the table, or had he been advised by council to "say nothing" he would not have incriminated himself . But because of his honesty , he was arrested. Wheres the logic in that. What are we talking about, paperwork!

It would be a good thing if the herpers in this hobby had a defense fund
I dont claim to know how to set one up But would gladly donate time and money to a Legitimate defense fund thats sole purpose would be to agressivly defend my/Our rights to own and breed animals/reptiles as long as it doesnt hurt people or the enviroment!

I am sure there are some out there qualified to do this,And with this hobby growing i am sure that if only some contribute at the very least we would be heard

I can understand some of the problems the authorities have with reptile but that in no way gives them the right to damn the whole hobby
I say as long as you are not hurting anyone with your pets then you should not be harassed

LOL... we could call it P.E.T.H.(People for the Ethical Treatment of Hobbyists)
If anyone wants to do this legitimatly i would Definetly support with at the very least monetary contributions
However i am no sucker so i put an enphasis on Legitimate if any of the GREEDY bad guys are reading

would love to have your imput such as PJAC, but we need some protection on a more local level specifically at shows to protect the vendors rights against self incriminations.

I need to know what I can say and what I should not say when I have 3 agents in front of my table. People spend allot of money to get to Daytona as a vendor. Its not enough that we have to go through hell with getting the animals their. We get hasseled by the airlines, hasseled by the hotel, and then have to worry about state agents.

This could have been resolved so easily by paying for the additonal permit right their and then as opposed to being incarcerated. Why was that not an option?

Here in NJ were are not allowed to keep buy or sell turtles.. because of the fear of saminella...

Originally Posted by KNOBTAIL

would love to have your imput such as PJAC, but we need some protection on a more local level specifically at shows to protect the vendors rights against self incriminations.

I need to know what I can say and what I should not say when I have 3 agents in front of my table. People spend allot of money to get to Daytona as a vendor. Its not enough that we have to go through hell with getting the animals their. We get hasseled by the airlines, hasseled by the hotel, and then have to worry about state agents.

This could have been resolved so easily by paying for the additonal permit right their and then as opposed to being incarcerated. Why was that not an option?

Sounds like a good idea
All the vendors could pitch in to hire a lawyer to be present and advise all at the show,That would show the Authorities that you wont stand for the harrassment!
If i was a vendor i would support it anyway i could

Im not sure and anyone correct me if im wrong, But i do not think they make you buy a permit here in Michigan to sell your animals at the show
And i would fight it if they tried, I just dont understand it
I wonder how many states regulate like fla?
If it was hurting someone or the animals i would agree to regulate it
But if not, Then i say let big bro harass someone else

Also i think the turtle thing is federal we have the same under 4" rules here
Although if a child was putting a turtle in his mouth i would be more worried of a bite then salmonilla
If this has happened i dont think its the turtles fault,Where were the parents?...lol

Originally Posted by KNOBTAIL

This could have been resolved so easily by paying for the additonal permit right their and then as opposed to being incarcerated. Why was that not an option?

Quite simple:

• Permit fee: $25
• Penalty for not having permit: $500 + court costs

As someone said earlier, these guys have two jobs and one is revenue generation. It's the same reason there are more speeding tickets issued near the end of the month. Gotta make that quota.

Now thats something Jim and i agree on
LOL...must be true

Just another thought.
Not that I condone the outrageous behaivor, and unprofessional actions of the F/W in Fla. But I am just trying to see it from their eyes.

From what I understand, (and feel free to correct me) Fla has one of the highest counts for indigenous, non-native herp species. They got populations of wild Burms, Bci, and countless lizards, anoles, etc., that have all been turned loose or escaped from people who bought them. Either from vendors at shows, or local pet stores, or online, but "where they bought" is irrelevant.
They are a huge problem. That is relevant. And may very well contribute to their extreme actions.
When an introduced species of reptile starts to eat the native fauna, and the native fauna hits endangered because of the intrduced species, than in their eyes, it may be time to get tougher about the reptiles in particular.

This is only speculation on my part. But I try to see both sides of the story.

It does not mean I agree with the methods they chose to use though. Anyway, just my extra $0.025. Think I gave a nickle now. LOL

Ciao,
Rick

I do not see why the shows could not have an attorney present, anything can happen that defense is needed. I have read articles of shows being broken into and thousands of dollars worth of animals were stolen. Does the shows themselves like NARBC or IRBA have their own attorneys? Or do the vendors need to get one and go after the perpetrators themselves? I do not know what the outcome was of these cases, I suspect a lot of people were involved.

I personally would not mind having someone to talk to in case someone approached me and said I was being fined/arrested because it took over 30 seconds for me to find my records. The bulldog is needed, but I think a raccoon might do better. These can be tricky, I work in the medical profession. OSHA fined a doctor because she had too much OSHA material on hand and it took her books where to specific, they fined her $10,000 because they said she should of had a section labeled "Other". She fought them tooth and nail, but she still ended up paying the $10,000 fine. All her paperwork was official OSHA material. What OSHA did afterwards was celebrate their victory by publishing the events in their newsletter, mocking her and warning everyone else.

I would expect the same kind of idiocy from F/W. If you go after such a large government agency you really need a strong offence. Every vendor would need to get involved and have a few attorneys working together. The shows themselves may have to add another $5 to each booth, I understand booths cost much, but if we have to fight so much over the little things because we love reptiles, though this may be what we have to do.