This is a perfect example as to why many people/breeders do not express their opinions or observations, ask questions and do not offer much of their experience on open forums.
Up until the other day, we hadn’t publicly posted an opinion on the adenovirus. Jean asked a question outright, and we answered her honestly. Wendy, we realize that there are many eyes on us, just waiting to see what we do. It is exactly for that reason that the details of what we are doing - are not public knowledge. We are not sitting on our hands, ignoring the situation and hoping it will go away and for those of you who have been led to believe this of us - you have been sadly misled.
We have never been quick to rush into anything base solely on an individuals opinion or popular belief. The facts as presented do not support the situation when compared to the 10 years of our own experiences, others breeders experiences and professionals. I want to thank all of them for helping us understand a little of what is going on as it is complicated information with unlimited variables. People are looking for a quick fix and immediate answers of which there are none. And if anyone claims otherwise - they are either ignorant of the information available or straight up lying.
It was first presented, years ago, that if an infected hatchling survived they would be sickly, need extra attention, etc… their whole life. If bred, the females fail in health and most of the resulting offspring would expire.
When Wendy first posted of her circumstances - this was not the case. It was again portrayed that adenovirus was deadly and becoming an epidemic in the dragon population. It was also implied that Dan’s 1-step test was all that was needed to rid the virus from a collection. Pretty simple, right?
Nothing is that simple and this is disgustingly misleading.
If Dan is accepted as the foremost expert - ask yourself why does Dr. Jacobson make no reference to him or his paper and one step testing methods?
We now know, through speaking with numerous professionals, that a 1-step testing procedure is only effective when positive results are returned. Negative test results need to be returned consecutively over a period of time. But this still offers no guarantee if the virus is latent - then the virus could still be present somewhere in the body in low numbers and become active at a later date - especially during periods of stress, such as breeding. (Not brumation as previously suggested) Could this be partly why later clutches are testing positive? We don’t know.
Quote:
http://www.tulane.edu/~dmsander/WWW/...noviruses.html
Adenovirus infections are very common, most are asymptomatic. Most people have been infected with at least 1 type at age 15. Virus can be isolated from the majority of tonsils/adenoids surgically removed, indicating latent infections. It is not known how long the virus can persist in the body, or whether it is capable of reactivation after long periods, causing disease (it is hard to isolate this occult virus as it may be present in only a few cells). It is known that virus is reactivated during immunosuppression, e.g. in AIDS patients.
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Through multiple testing on young and old dragons there are now results that some dragons housed together are positive and some negative. No medical professional will tell me that the dragons not currently shedding the virus, although certainly exposed, do not have the virus present somewhere in their body and are not at risk for future infection.
Now as more breeders are testing - people with a variety # of animals in their collection - they are returning positive results, in disbelief. Why? They truly thought they were negative because they were not having issues with their animals. Most of these people that have recently tested positive are highly recommended breeders, on a variety of forums - including the “Breeders Network”. We ourselves have recommended them.
Many of these people (now and previously) have had NO die-offs. How is that possible? It is simple really - they are doing something different, or perhaps enough “right” things for adenovirus and other pathogens not to present a problem or perhaps asymptomatic animals are on the road to resistance.
We feel these people should be commended - not berated or avoided. We are not “grilling” them by asking relevant questions. We are trying to find answers and possibly gain a little understanding. The more you understand, the less fear you may have.
Regardless of what some may think or say - premature death can sometimes be attributed to a combination of husbandry practices which the caregiver may not be aware of. The caregiver usually does really well the first year - but as they expand and add more animals the room environment will begin to change unknowingly, thus effecting the micro-environment or cage. The more animals in a collection, the more challenges one will face and minimal changes can have a major impact.
In our experience, air conditioners being run to combat high room temperatures and consistent high basking temperatures will lead to dehydration and other issues. The natural response would be to water more frequently. This natural response does not address the initial problem of too much heat in a given area nor the air conditioner removing moisture from the air. In this instance, more care is not the same as better care.
We do not believe the adenovirus is a deadly plague that is sweeping through the bearded dragon population and indiscriminately killing off our animals. It is however a concern, as a viral infection that seems to be prevalent throughout the captive bearded dragon population. The recent testing of healthy individuals support our opinion. “Prevalent” is not our word, but that of the many professionals we have been in contact with - including the University of Florida.
The percentages of positive results that were returned back in Aug-Oct were attributed to the fact that mostly known infected or suspected samples were being submitted. Minimal changes in the percentages of positive results have occurred with the submission of many additional samples from healthy animals. We now wonder how many negative animals will test positive with consistent testing especially during the latter part of breeding.
In addition, when asked “Which testing method and submitted sample would give us the highest probability of returning a positive result?” both University of Penn and University of Fl. responded that a PCR on a fresh fecal sample should be ran. Any animal with negative results should be repeatedly tested in the case that something may trigger an otherwise latent/occult virus to actively shed.
When I asked University of Fl. about submitting blood samples we were told that it should only produce a positive result if the initial infection had progressed from an enteric to a systemic infection, as the PCR they offer identifies viral DNA. (In our opinion their blood test would not be the best medium to test on a healthy animal.)
Do not take our word for this. Have your veterinarian contact the University of Florida and speak directly to them. 352.392.4700 ext. 5775
With the adenovirus testing positive in so many collections now - it has been asked before “where are all of the reports of dead dragons?” Sadly, the only reports of deaths we have received with this last influx of positive results are the ones that people are putting down out of fear of transmission. HEALTHY animals have been put down out of fear.
Saladragon - Care to elaborate on the advise you were given by Dr. Wentz regarding euthanizing positive animals? If my memory serves correctly you stated on the phone to us “The f****** crack-head” said to “whack them, but not too hard…” Want to finish this sentence?
We did not hastily present our opinion to the community nor did we offer a plan for everyone to follow regarding something we know so very little about. We are still gathering our own information and doing our own testing. It is not our place to tell anyone what to do and are more than willing to share our information. The best recommendation we can offer is to research and ask a lot of questions.
According to some, we are now expected to test and declare an animal free of adenovirus? If anyone can refer us to a creditable Doctor that will provide a test that will return a definitive negative diagnosis, please let us know.
On another note :
It is a well known fact that inbreeding will occur in any species when starting a colony of animals displaying recessive traits. To ignore that fact is a display of ignorance.
Josh was honest enough to offer a detailed history of the evolution of Sandfire’s Translucent project, as he knows it. As pointed out by Josh, they had definite issues. It is a well known fact that when extreme mutations occur (naturally or selectively) not all outcomes are of positive/desired traits. At this point, you have 2 choices. Lose the trait by not breeding it or try to strengthen the mutation.
**What would you do if you hatched an albino bearded dragon that was less than perfect? You only have 1 - do you admire it or breed it? In order to reproduce the albino trait some form of inbreeding must occur.
To assume Josh or any breeder would want to produce sickly or malformed animals is just stupid. In recent years he has put an extraordinary amount of effort into improving the health and hardiness of this line. The results of his labors and planning are visible in the animals themselves - ask those people who actually own them. Those breeders we have spoken to, of which there are many, have commented on the health and vigor of Josh‘s dragons. These animals speak for themselves and have more than once been referred to as “eye candy”.
Everyone enjoys a piece of candy, but rarely takes a close look at the ingredients.
but the cost is worth it for sure. and the extra charge your proposing isn't exactly much anyways... if it means you have the means to test slap it on top and do it, it's a business expense. And as for trust issues, if you are testing you will have the proof should anyone request it and what you do will get around.
it is gutwrenching and heartbreaking and costly to them.
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