An ethics question, Help - Page 2

08-02-2002, 07:43 PM

dwedeking ?? Umm where exactly did I do this ? I didn't 'cast" any "names" upon the guy at all. I even went back and re read my post to be sure ..
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">While Lori may be correct in that this guy is a schmuck, that's not a judgement I feel qualified to make via a post on a message board</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

sturgisfxb..
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Lets not be so quick to be so harsh to a fellow herper who has fallen on hard times.
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It's really not a thing of passing judgement on the guy. It is clear that he did most likely fall under hard times most likely. My direction in what I stated really came from the venue of direction for the sake of the snake is all. The guy , upon falling unto hard times could have done the responsible thing as far as the snake is concerned and contacted someone whom does reptile rescue to seek their help with "accomodating" the snake until such time that he "got back on his feet". Might be a hard thing to accomplish possibly, but a quick search for such shows the following...
yahoo : 18 results
Google : Results 1 - 10 of about 26,000. Search took 0.12 seconds.

I'm not a "rocket scientist", lol, BUT c'mon pleeease...
26,000 search results for reptile rescue ? AND the guy places the snake into a storage unit in THOSE temps ? Oh and before ya come back with this one..let me save ya some typing too.. LIBRARIES HAVE internet access if he didn't have such himself Also most a/c's have a listing of us reptile rescuers too, as well as the F&W Dept.'s of most states too. That list could go on further even, but think the point is made here already.
Just an FYI.. Quite a few of us reptile rescuers will take in a reptile in a case such as this one when asked/contacted in regards to such. Most of us wouldn't even ask for any funding for such things as feeders even also. Some of us even have 501 C status and receive funding that would cover this type of thing also as far as feeder cost goes etc and such.
The problem is that the guy did NOT take ALL action[s] he could have into account where it concerns the health and safety of the snake.. nothing more, nothing less. There is no excuse, not even his current life situation , for what he did with the snake at all.

herpavian.. Doing such would benefit both the snake and the guy at the same time.   Maybe that's what you should consider doing CNJ.

08-02-2002, 08:40 PM

Please do yourself a big favor and ignore the first reply you got, nor follow others that suggest the same. These may have been well intentioned but they recommend what is very (VERY) likely illegal. That is they recommend, as I understand it, either directly or by implication, that you should not return the animal to someone as irresponsible as the person who left it in the storage container. If this snake belongs to that person, this would very likely be considered larceny or theft. Secondly it sounds to me by what you wrote, that you likely agreed to give the snake back to this person when he lands on his feet again. While you may not have said that to him exactly, you certainly implied such when you agreed to keep it after hearing his story and then told him to call you and gave him your number. While Judge Judy may agree with you that you should keep the snake, a civil court or criminal court (in the real world) probably would not and would find for breach of contract in his favor.

You see, legally and ethically, it is not your decision to make when it comes down to whether or not this animal was abandoned or whether it was mistreated or mis-cared for. If you had strong concerns that any of these were the case then you should have contacted law enforcement authorities and turned the snake over to them or to whomever they directed you.

The first reply poster may not have called the guy a schmuck as someone else said she did, however she certainly implied him, in my opinion, to be something along the lines of a negligent animal keeper. She also said, in essence, that he was irresponsible. Furthermore she said, in essence among - other things, that this person blatantly ignored the needs of the snake. She apparently bases all of this upon your postings and upon her own experience as a responsible animal keeper or so she apparently claims herself to be. I do not doubt she is responsible; however I do doubt that she should have  arrived at the conclusions she reached based upon the meager hearsay evidence she was provided. She has no idea what all of the facts were surrounding the circumstances of the snake winding up in the storage shed, except for what you posted. I am not doubting the veracity of what you said, as far as your truthfulness goes, but I do wonder how much of the story given by the down and out fellow is true. I am not really doubtful of his story, I don't know enough to doubt him yet, but it does deserve some investigation.

You see all of it may be true or it may all be horse hockey (as Col. Potter used to say). The guy may be truly down and out, having just fallen on bad times. Maybe he just got divorced, and or lost his job. Maybe he lost everything in the stock market recently.  Maybe the news was worse, maybe he just lost his life - do you think he could have just discovered he has AIDS? Maybe the stresses in his life, whatever they may be, have suddenly knocked him down hard. Maybe that snake was the only thing he had that he cared about but just could not deal with it when he left it there. Do you think maybe he could have forgotten to lock the shed because he was stressed out or emotionally unstable at the moment. Why would he leave his other belongings there unattended (you did say the tanks was sitting on other stuff). Is that why the lock was off. Maybe he contemplated committing suicide, and left it open for others to find. Maybe when you called him, you brought him back to reality by showing enough compassion to take care of a snake. Who knows, this is all conjecture.

Now let me play devil's advocate for a moment. Maybe this guy is a junky who lost his family and job because he is no good. Maybe the snake is his and he is just too darned high all the time to take care of it. (Probably not because it looked otherwise well cared for when you found it barring the immediate conditions.) Maybe he is someone who is so down and out that he stole the snake, and not knowing better left it in the shed until he could sell it. Maybe that is why he thinks he can get $250 for it - or maybe he bought it in a pet shop and was ripped off himself. Who knows?<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>??

Do you see a pattern here - either way good or bad. There are a lot of maybes! Until you talk to this guy further you will likely not know. If you see him again ask him all about the snake and how he cared for it. If he does not know squat then you might be able to start thinking that the snake is not his in the first place. If on the other hand he tells you all about how he fed it weekly or every ten days, how much he heated the enclosure, what he used as substrate and on and on, then you could possibly conclude that it may well have been his and he did fall on hard times. Who knows, you may never get the story right as you might not ever hear from him again.

As it stands, you are the caregiver of the snake right now; but if this guy wants it back - you are pretty much legally and ethically on the spot and should return it, unless you get a court decision otherwise while waiting. But if you do return it, don't just return it, question him first to get the story, but be polite. And if you want to buy it, offer him a fair price, if he is down and out he will probably take it, unless of course he really does not want to sell it.

Oh by the way, just one more thing. Someone, I have lost track of who said what, said he broke the rules keeping an animal in the shed. That same person then said, in essence - among other things, he should have kept it in the hotel even if he had to sneak it in because it was against hotel rules. Isn't that a bit hypocritical. Shouldn't he have tried to keep it as best he could by legitimate methods without violating any rules. If you want to say he is guilty because he broke one set of rules, then don't go ahead and say he would have exonerated himself by breaking another set of rules.

Well I do wish you luck. I hope you get to keep the snake  if the other guy cannot care for it. I also wish the other guy luck and hope he gets back on his feet and that he gets to keep the snake if that is what makes him happy. If that is the case, then you should be happy to have done a good deed for the time you had the boa.

Just my opinions, not trying to piss anyone off, so please don't get that way. Good luck.

Best regards to all,
Glenn.

08-02-2002, 08:54 PM

Lori,

I would consider anyone that goes out of their way(by ignoring advice, etc) to cause harm to animals a "schmuck" (to say the least). I was reading into your diagnosis of the situation.

If this was a case of intentional disregard for the well being of the animal I would agree with you, but without talking to the person I would not know this. I know that if for some reason my businesses were taken away today, the stress and concern may clutter my logical thinking process for a few days and I could make mistakes. If this guy had just gone through trauma (him being a snake person, and what I've seen with your guys' drama, he probably lost his wife to his best friend who also was the guy who got him into snakes, who also was his boss, who also was supposed to fix his car, and owned the note on his house which was foreclosed on  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='

'> )

I was offering an alternative reason for the situation the snake was found in.

Since you do a lot of rescue situations I am sure you're a little more jaded about people's excuses than I (My brother who's a state trooper is that way with people he pulls over).

08-02-2002, 08:58 PM

With drama - I thought it was melodrama at the very least. Oh it was fun replying anyhow, and as dramatic as it may have been I think it made my point pretty well if not a bit (err a lot) too long winded........

08-03-2002, 12:16 AM

Glenn.. </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Oh by the way, just one more thing. Someone, I have lost track of who said what, said he broke the rules keeping an animal in the shed. That same person then said, in essence - among other things, he should have kept it in the hotel even if he had to sneak it in because it was against hotel rules. Isn't that a bit hypocritical. Shouldn't he have tried to keep it as best he could by legitimate methods without violating any rules. If you want to say he is guilty because he broke one set of rules, then don't go ahead and say he would have exonerated himself by breaking another set of rules.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

I am the one that you are refering to here. What I said was this ..

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I do a lot of traveling in regards to rescues myself. So I do spend a bit of time in hotels/motels at times AND usually have reptiles with me IN the rooms also. Ya just don't announce such to mgmt when checking in is all. You also leave the room at ALL times with that lil sign that says do not disturb also. Wouldn't want any maids coming in and freaking out at what they found ya know..lol. I have had all types reptiles in motel with me from lil ole baby snakes, turts up through HUGE burms and even the occasional crocodilian too. I have never had a problem associated with doing such either. One just has to take the precautions to insure that the reptile is indeed safe and taken care of properly is all when doing such too.
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I do not ask for the mgmt. in order to ANNOUNCE that I have reptiles with me and exactly what they are. I utilize the ones that allow pets to be in the room[s] with ya. The clerks that are at the desk when I am checking in are informed that I have reptiles with me [ and they also request that the lil sign saying "do not disturb" be placed on the door at all times even.so that none of their staff will become frightened if they were to enter the room and come across the reptiles possibly] Seeing as the same routes are usually traveled also, we know which places we can stay with the reptiles even when planning a route. We even sometimes will travel outside of our route if it is not one that we normally use in order to find a motel that doesn't have a problem with the reptiles being in the room sometimes. They do however want assurance that the reptiles are properly "secured" while on the premises and that we are not going to "walk" about with them whereas other guests would see them basically. We also have only one motel, which is in Orlando Florida area that doesn't have a problem with us "walking" about ..ie.. from our vehicle to the room or vice versa with something like a 5' boa in hand. They actually ask us to bring reptiles down to the office after we're checked in and get into the room so that they can take a look at 'em.

dwedeking.. In regards to this...
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Since you do a lot of rescue situations I am sure you're a little more jaded about people's excuses than I (My brother who's a state trooper is that way with people he pulls over).</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

I probably am  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>  AND I am sure I have as yet to hear em all even ! [excuses that is ]

Glenn.. The thoughts were given in relation to the question of ethics as was asked.. Now if it's the legality issue that needs to be addressed then..

Once the snake was found to be in the storage unit [i] The local a/c or F&W Dept. should have been called upon, NOT an employees brother for starters. Possibly even the local PD to inform them as to the situation. Of course most likely, unless there is a local rehabber whom is state licensed, or a reptile rescue that takes calls for the a/c or F&W Dept. in that area, the snake would have been placed into a local animal shelter or the SPCA [ if there is one in that location ]. Ever see the conditions which a snake, or any other reptile for that matter are kept in such places ? I have...No heat [probably should say it as temp gradient here even] , no lighting [usually in just a basic dark colored tote], no water, no substrate etc... MOST reptiles that are kept in such places wind up with major health issues which they did not have prior to being placed there. There are some animal shelters who can properly accomodate reptiles, but they are few and far between.  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='

'>
So basically , in the "legal" sense cnj never should have been called upon in regards to this reptile at all even. [ Unless he is licensed within his state to do such and has informed the proper authorities that he now has possession of the snake also. Afterall... He is not an emplyee of the storage unit.. or is he ?
Enough of that..back to the "issue" at hand...

I beleive the question was whether or not he should return the snake to the person who left it in that storage unit. Obviously you, cnj, have some "reserve[s]" about doing such.
Either work out something that is mutually agreeable to both you and the person who placed the snake in that unit.. OR go the  route of  contacting the authorities to find out what exactly local laws are in relation to the situation and what should be done from the legal standpoint..[usually a/c or the F&W Dept.] in regards to the snake. [IF the person is true to what they are saying to you, then you may just very well be "stirring up" more problems in their life for them were you to do such. Which would not be what they need at this point either.
The person did say that they just needed a few weeks time in order to get their life together..didn't they ? Is it possible that you could house/care for the snake during such time and then take a "clearer" view of the situation at that point and go from there then ?
Long enough post.. outta here...
call the proper authorities who

08-03-2002, 12:41 AM

okay, jeff and i are aware of the legalities of the issue in that the snake does belong to this individual and that he does deserve to get his snake back if that is what he wants to do at a time that he is able to properly care for her.

no, jeff does not work for the storage company in question. we both used to up until a couple of months ago. his brother, who still works for them, came across the snake while doing his walk through and was not sure about what to do so he called us. luke isn't exactly a big fan of snakes. lol but he knows that his brother has a certain amount of experience in dealing with them and he didn't want a 6 foot long boa wandering around his place of business/home as she could have easily gotten out of her cage.

the guy who owns the snake totally agreed that he wanted jeff to bring the snake home and care for it until he is able to do so himself. so there was no need to contact anyone else. we have been in contact with other rescuers (that doesn't look like it's spelled right) in our state and are listed to receive rescues so i personally don't see an issue with this. maybe i'm wrong.

we would love to purchase the boa. she is beautiful and as jeff stated, she appears to be in good health minus the conditions she was in earlier today. right now, we aren't able to afford what the guy is asking, but hopefully, when, and if, he contacts us in a few weeks we will be able to make him an offer that is more in our price range.

jeff certainly did not mean to come off sounding as if he is trying to kick the guy while he's down or like we are going to "steal" the snake from him. we are well aware of what's it's like to fall on hard times ourselves, as is most everyone i'm sure. we certainly hope this guy can get himself out of whatever hole he's in.

the fact that the guy broke the rules listed in his storage contract is, like someone mentioned earlier, a moot point. what is the point, is that he left a live animal in a cement and metal storage room in extreme heat for god knows how long, in an inadequate cage in filthy conditions. people can go to jail for leaving their dogs in the car with the window rolled up for crying out loud. hard times or not, it's no excuse for animal cruelty.

08-03-2002, 01:42 AM

So I should have contacted the police and gotten the guy in trouble.  The animal would have been killed more than likely.  Our state veterinarian isn't all that big on the keeping of reptiles anyway.  So I make the rest of us look bad as well.  This guy could have been charged with releasing a non-native species, since she was not secure and could easily have escaped, to add to his problems with his mother's brother's cousin's uncle's next door neighbor's dogs best friend or whatever his problem may be <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='

'> So contacting the authority probably wasn't the best thing to do, you know we're a little backwards here in Va.  My whole point is, what is best for the animal?  Not me, not him, not anyone.  The animal is the only concern in this situation.  No I don't know his story, it could be true, it could be b.s.  This is a fairly young guy(21-24), just a few years younger than me, no car, hanging out in the club till 2-3a.m., living in a cheap motel, a not seeming to care too much about it.  He really came across as one of those club kids, so maybe he lost all his money on ecstasy or something I don't know.  I gave him the benefit of the doubt so I guess we'll see.

08-03-2002, 01:42 AM

This is out of the blue but i would (If i was him) pay u back everything and then some!!

If he couldn't take care of her he should sell her and 250 for a  boa?

08-03-2002, 02:19 AM

Cindy...
In reference to ..

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">it's no excuse for animal cruelty</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

EXACTLY !

Jeff...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The animal would have been killed more than likely.  Our state veterinarian isn't all that big on the keeping of reptiles anyway.  </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

When I said this..
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">[i]Ever see the conditions which a snake, or any other reptile for that matter are kept in such places ? I have...No heat [probably should say it as temp gradient here even] , no lighting [usually in just a basic dark colored tote], no water, no substrate etc... MOST reptiles that are kept in such places wind up with major health issues which they did not have prior to being placed there. There are some animal shelters who can properly accomodate reptiles, but they are few and far between. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

That is one of the things I did forget to mention could happen also...Which from what you have said.. sounds like what would have happened most likely even with the snake.  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='

'>  A lot of the time when authorities are contacted in regards to a reptile in such a circumstance as this one.. the reptile is euthanized. So knowing that.. would going the "legal" route have been for the best ? Sometimes our legal system does not work for the best interest of those invlolved in certain situations. Your brother made a choice to call you, due to certain things, in regards to the snake. Knowing what I do, I also would have done the same thing most likely had it been me. Doing such would have been with the snake in mind , not the legal issues. I personally wouldn't want to be the one that contributed to the "demise" of the snake. Sometimes the choices that we make are done for what our beliefs and/or level of empathy which we have in regards to a life form are.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So contacting the authority probably wasn't the best thing to do, you know we're a little backwards here in Va. My whole point is, what is best for the animal? Not me, not him, not anyone. The animal is the only concern in this situation.
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

With what you have said now.. Sounds like your correct.. BUT I was only pointing out such due to the legal venue, which someone else brought into the thread of posts here.

Don't get me wrong. I think IMHO that the snake is THE MAIN CONCERN here and is in better hands atm than it had been left... I hope that you are able to work something out with the guy in regards to the snake. AND ..In the meantime, the snake is being taken care of the way it should be also.

Regards...

08-03-2002, 02:32 AM

lori, i knew that you understood where we were coming from.  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='

'>

virginia has recently passed a new law, SB 260, which seriously limits rescuers of all animals, especially reptiles. jeff and i, along with many others in our state, opose these restrictions and this is another reason we felt it best to handle things the way we did, without involving authorities. as jeff stated, the guy could also have been charged with a few different things which just would have hampered his trying to get back on his feet.

we don't want or expect any repayment from the guy for keeping the snake for him. the guy is living hand to mouth so to speak, i'm certainly not going to brow beat him over the cost of a few rats. we simply hate facing the fact that, if for some reason we are unable to buy her from the guy, she could easily end up right back in the same predicament or worse. no animal deserves that just because their owner has issues.


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