Reptile Ethics, When do we say thats enough

In one year and 5 months you have 20 points. Wow, on that record you will be banned from this site in 3 months.

I have to echo Seamus' question on this one - what in Hades prompted such a reply from colubridman88 aka: Jesse Smith?

And I also have to echo another sentiment posted in this thread - I think of Evan - what the heck are you talking about? Do we have to depend upon other members searching through various threads to discover the heart of the matter - or will you tell us yourself? Since you don't spell it out in your initial post, I must seriously wonder if there is any merit to that of which you speak or if you even know anything of what you speak! I certainly hope you gave more info to the "AGENT" and the police.

Please lay out the facts - not to your liking, but rather in a factual, logical manner without the emotionally charged rhetoric and name calling. If you cannot do that, then I will have to arrive at my own opinion. That will likely be that your initial posting, in my opinion, was nothing more than rant from the likes of what I like to call the Animal Rights Gestapo - trying to infiltrate this site and ruin it for all of us. Then again, if you do have facts and evidence - why not post it for all to see, so we can make up our own minds as to the nature of the beast.

Sincerely,
Glenn B

Hopefully this will alleviate the head scratching and confusion on the initial post. Here is the link to the accusations that I believe motivated Colubridman88 to start this thread:

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...threadid=28577

I'm not sure why the initial poster didn't want to mention any names, but it sure does confuse things.

Here's the gist of the deal:

Kevin Smith made a bad guy post about Ray Hunter. In the course of the thread, there were posts made that seem to indicate that Kevin Smith has venomoid surgeries performed on his animals by someone other than a licensed veterinarian. As you can imagine, that enraged several people, Colubridman88 among them.

However, if there is documentation that Kevin Smith is having these surgeries performed illegally, I missed it.

I hope this at least clarifies some of the background.

By the way.....Seamus, nice job on the math...... I was roflmao

Kevin admitted it first hand during phone conversations. I think everything is settled now after that thread and if anything were still ongoing in regards to the "surgeries" it would be pretty stupid on his part due to the many people that have notified authorities? Who knows? Ray G. HBR

OK I just skimmed that thread. And here's my question.


It that really illegal?

Improper probably, but I don't think illegal holds up.

I don't agree with altering venomous snakes. But, I think that the law would view this in much the same way they would view ranchers castrating thier own animals. As long as he is performing this procedure on his own animals or doing it for free, I really don't think it would be illegal. Many people would call the branding of cattle illegal if we went by what some of those laws said, but it's not.

Now we might want to look into adding a law which makes this illegal, but as of right now, I seriously doubt that it is. Any attorney worth his fee, could throw a thousand examples of procedures performed by pet owners in front of a court, and then show how they might be construded as something which could cause pain, or even death if done improperly. I.e. you trim your dog's nails, cut one to short, it bleeds, the dog yelps, it gets infected, and the dog dies. Extreme yes, but that's what the argument would be, and any vet put on the stand would have to agree that it would be "possible" for that senario to take place.

Ethics are a touchy area, and not everyones are the same. And just because you/we don't like it, doesn't make it illegal.

I think the original poster was alledging that someone was performing the procedure without being a veterinarian, which is where the illegality came in. That's the best I could make of it.

In my opinion I think the original post was only looking to flame and cause trouble. There has been more than ample time for him to post additional information here to explain the purpose of this thread. As I see it this thread was likely started as a sort of poison pen letter, and nothing more!
Best regards,
Glenn B

Brian, that's what I'm saying. I think as long as you owed the snake you were performing this "surgery" on, I don't think the laws could touch you.

I know it's a lengthy thread but if you read through it carefully you will see where for example Scott posted laws in regards to Oregon. They do apply in this case. In addition... if you do not consider placing animals under surgery without anestetics cruel...well your someone without a soul. If he is actually using meds/anesthetics a whole new area opens up. I do think that there are rare circumstances where "venomids" are a necessary evil. However, to simply perform the surgery just to make someone feel safer is without merit. Even if you do not agree with the above... The issue is 1)performed by an unlicensed unqualified person. 2) Illegal possesion of regulated veterinary equipment/tools 3)Illegal possesion of controlled drugs/substances? The main basis of the arguement should not be Venomoid vs Anti-Venomoid. It's a matter of ethics/animal cruelty/illegal activities. I might not agree with the issue but, I would not have such a problem with a trained/qualified/experienced vet doing the work. Either way you look at the issue however... I think it was at an end during that thread. Let's leave off on that particular person. If I am correct authorities are already hard at work. No reason to beat another "dead horse"! Jesse... no reason to attack Scott and Seamus... They were trying to get more info and point to the appropriate area for this discussion. Thanks Ray G. HBR

Sorry havent been posting. Been out of town. Yea maybe i shouldn't have jumped up seamus @#$. However his reply made me laugh. Just out of curiosity Seamus, what is your level of education? And you are quite the detective, there are two people using this login, is that against the rules?!?!?!? WOuld it suprise you to know that the other person is........MY ROOM MATE. Who only uses this site to sell snakes.
And in regards to the cattle castration point. ALL ranchers who castrate thier own cattle have to be "certified". They undergo training by a DVM. At least thats the way it is in CO. They recieve pre-dosed syringes of anastesheia.

Kevin is breaking the law, period. Go back and look through the thread. Specifically the part about animal cruelty statues in the state of oregon.
And the fact that he dodged the question every time he was asked it only proves he KNOWS what he is doing is wrong.
I know for a fact it is illegal, Why you ask, BECAUSE, the state of oregon has started an investigation. Not only for " performing and/or practicing a surgical veternarian procedure with out a proper license", but also for being in posession of controlled substances.

Jesse Smith

The issue is 1)performed by an unlicensed unqualified person.

So, ranchers have licenses to castrate animals?

Illegal possesion of regulated veterinary equipment/tools

I can buy everything needed to perform this operation at the local flea market. Not illegal.

Illegal possesion of controlled drugs/substances?

How many of us have a bottle of Baytril or other prescribed med sitting around right now. If he's getting this stuff from a vet then I don't think it will stand up.

I don't agree w/ the procedure, but I don't think for a minute that they will be able to convict him of anything. If an attorney shows the jury the range of procedures performed by animal owners every single day and the "cruelty" of those procedures, do you really think they are going to take pity on some rattlesnake? We can "convict" him here all we want, but we know more about these animals than the jury will. Further, he may very know how to do this procedure w/o hurting or harming the animals. If his vet is allowing him to do that, do we really want to pass laws which take away our own ability to treat our animals? I know I don't want to run to the vet everytime I need to give an animal a shot of Baytril.