The Dangerous Animal Initiative-USA

I love animals very much. I am a true Amphib guy and certainly appreciate reptiles as well. So people buying gators, caimans, huge pythons or Boas for which they do not have the capability to properly care for the length of their lives, so they are set free. I also have dogs, many species of dogs (not just pit bulls) can be very dangerous and cause severe damage and death frequently. So I guess my point is the term "exotically dangerous" it can fit so many species of "domesticated" animals. I bet you the one set of animals not on the Virginia exotic animal law would be hunting dogs! You cannot regulate nor force idiots to evolve through written law; just does not work. Just please let the responsible breeders continue to do our best to sustain the populations of herps that are so quickly disappearing.

Chris

The advantage to a carefully tailored statute is that it will allow the state to go after those who break the law at the state's expense. Civil litigation is VERY costly, telling someone who has been wronged that they can sue is not adequate when they may have to come up with tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees.

Do I want everything we do legislated? Of course not. But I am concerned for kids and even for myself if some idiot should move in next door and for example come over all the time and ask me if I've seen his pet rattlesnake.

I have nothing against properly kept critters, but I don't want to go into the garage to get my garden rake and come face to face with an escaped anything that has large teeth and isn't in a good mood.

One thing I see in threads like these are hundreds of packaged answers about freedom, about government, about sweet pit bulls and vicious yorkies, about idiocy on either side.
Let's not do that to each other here. I want some real, thoughtful answers.

I have to ask how often that there is an actual dangerous captive animal getting loose?

For simplicity sake, let's exclude owners, keepers and handlers from this piece of the conversation. Also excluded should be wild animals that wander into someone's home or property. What should be left is an actual escapee or intently set free animals like in Ohio.

If we can assume we cannot regulate mental illness, but still including those animals, how often does this happen?

One person at the public meeting was most upset because his neighbor, who has permits to house primates and other 'zoo' type wildlife had a kangaroo loose. He had possible valid claims that they were housing more animals than the permits allowed and he was not impressed with how they handled the capture of the animal on his property. If I recall correctly, he stated that there were animals loose on his property 'all the time'.

To me, he has a real danger of encountering a wild exotic animal capable of doing him or his family harm. I believe there is plenty of regulation already in place to enforce the permits or revoke them. If not, then the work group can make stronger suggestions.

I'm to understand that part of the reason he house these animals is that he is where these unwanted exotics can end up after they have been confiscated.

Now to my point. 1) The state already has some regulations regarding these animals but has no money to enforce or manage the regulations as they are. Most of this work already falls on dedicated keepers and is funded by their own time and money. They actually have to pay the government for all the permits just to handle their needs.

2) Given very limited resources, and how few real events actually occur, how practical is it to add more unfunded regulations to the system?

3) I've heard this time and time again from all the zoo people, "They should leave the reptile people out of this."

The thought occurs to me. Most city ordnance will not allow for livestock like cows, horses, etc. Komoto Dragons and alligators/crocs seem obvious for this list. But if I have a farm or appropriate facility to house and maintain these awesome animals, why not?

I believe there are several injuries every year in most states to people from other folks' livestock that got loose and came onto their property and bit or trampled them. You can go several years before you find an example of an exotic that caused harm to someone other than their owner or handler.

So, I have to ask again, how real, or possible is the likelihood that you will encounter an escaped, previously captive, dangerous animal? What are the chances?

Michael

Originally Posted by billewicz

For simplicity sake, let's exclude owners

No, let's not. Irresponsible owners are something to fear.

Michael, I think you are using canned answers. You have not put any thought into my example, of a neighbor's critter getting loose.

I'm not asking for grandstanding canned goods, I'm asking for some thoughtful responses of what can be done to manage the problems that come up.

I think our animal control officers need more education on everything. They need more resources available to take control of any situation that can arise. They need to have training on how to handle a wild bear that was released or a wild alligator that crawled on someones property, or snake that crawled into someone's house whether it be released, escapee, or wild. The issue in Ohio could happen from a zoo even without private ownership. Like people have stated, we can't stop mental illness and we can't stop stupidity. However, we can have protocols in place for how to handle situations and we can have consequences in place for when people don't adhere to a certain level of care. I know there are technical consequences for animal abuse and neglect but it doesn't seem consistent. If you were irresponsible and caught, then maybe you need to pay a $5,000 fine for your negligence or the fine be appropriate for the level of what happened. How many people would consider releasing one animal if they were scared to get caught and have to pay thousands of dollars that they didn't have. They might consider a better option. The reality is, we are NEVER going to not have a crazy animal moment in the USA. We just need to be prepared for when something happens. Just like Hurricanes. They are not going to stop coming but each time they hit us, we prepare better the next time. We learn and try to do a better job. This is the same with the animal issues. We need to stop trying to ban everything and have our animal control people become more educated and prepared while arresting those that are being irresponsible.

Star

Originally Posted by Lucille

No, let's not. Irresponsible owners are something to fear.

Michael, I think you are using canned answers. You have not put any thought into my example, of a neighbor's critter getting loose.

I'm not asking for grandstanding canned goods, I'm asking for some thoughtful responses of what can be done to manage the problems that come up.

I'm sorry you think I'm wasting your time with canned answers. I put a couple of hours into writing, and then rewriting that little piece. I've spent days traveling back and forth to sit in on the work groups and then participate in the public input piece. There is nothing canned here. It's exactly how I feel and I will not let someone belittle the fact that many others feel the same way. It's not a canned question. It's a resounding one. Why are we wasting so much time and resources toward regulating reptiles when there is so few actual examples of one harming another person after escaping? I'd have to look again, but I could only find one example of a fatality from a reptile in the US that came from someone coming across an escaped, previously captive reptile.

You have stated several times that you are scared of running into just such a situation and want regulations to protect you from this happening. Please show us the real numbers on escaped dangerous reptiles. Because no one has been able to produce them for the work group either.

_________________________

You asked me to answer those who would be fearful of dangerous animals and what I would tell them and the politicians who are looking to appease them.

There is no one liner here. The work group has been tasked to address everything from elephants, lions, tigers, bears, wolves, primates, reptiles, spiders and everything in between.

They are being asked to address disease, invasive probabilities, public safety, first responder safety, management between existing federal and state laws and then weigh in the concerns of all other stakeholders.

From what I can see, the work group is looking at an animal by animal basis because no blanket ruling seems to fit to even a sub-species. The work is very complex. So the answer is not going to be simple.

My motivation is to find a workable plan that addresses real issues in the hopes that this will quell hysteria over unfounded fears.

I would have never invested several years and over $200,000 into reptiles for genetic conservation and development, and for profit if I knew that someone could sway our lawmakers to make my venture illegal, not because there was an alarming number of actual cases of dangerous escaped reptiles being let loose, but on the idea that there is a one in several million chance that it might happen. (Fact: The US averages about 12 fatal snake bites a year. Almost all are from wild animals, not captives.)

Additionally I have posting this to help people be informed as best as I can and engage in dialog to motivate them to take action and be heard. To be slammed with your negative 'canned' remark was hurtful and not appreciated in the least. I'm wondering if you have anything here at stake? What do you have to loose?

Michael

Originally Posted by billewicz

You have stated several times that you are scared of running into just such a situation and want regulations to protect you from this happening.

You do not appear to be reading what I am saying, I have never said I wanted regulation. Your answers are canned if you are providing replies to something I didn't even say. You appear to be seeking a soapbox to step up on. It ain't me, babe.

I do think that irresponsible owners are a safety hazard, and I do not want one next door to me.
There are advantages to some regulation, in that enforcement expenses are born by the state. But that is not necessarily the answer. I specifically asked for answers, so far you have given none that would address my concerns, or the concerns of others that may be similar. You've merely said that answers are complicated. Of course they are. Are you leaving it at that? If the state is not the one to enforce safety, who should bear the time and expense to do so?

Originally Posted by Lucille

You do not appear to be reading what I am saying, I have never said I wanted regulation. Your answers are canned if you are providing replies to something I didn't even say. You appear to be seeking a soapbox to step up on. It ain't me, babe.

I do think that irresponsible owners are a safety hazard, and I do not want one next door to me.
There are advantages to some regulation, in that enforcement expenses are born by the state. But that is not necessarily the answer. I specifically asked for answers, so far you have given none that would address my concerns, or the concerns of others that may be similar. You've merely said that answers are complicated. Of course they are. Are you leaving it at that? If the state is not the one to enforce safety, who should bear the time and expense to do so?

I'm truly sorry for I thought we were having a conversation and I thought this forum would be a good place to have this discussion.

I was not aware that the rules for engagement were to only answer a specific question directly.

With the continued accusatory tone, this thread does not seem to be serving the original purpose of asking folks to submit to the work group, their thoughts on the matter. I'll take my canned, grandstanding and find a soapbox from where I might be able to some good.

All the best,

Michael

Originally Posted by billewicz

I'm truly sorry for I thought we were having a conversation and I thought this forum would be a good place to have this discussion.

I was not aware that the rules for engagement were to only answer a specific question directly.

With the continued accusatory tone, this thread does not seem to be serving the original purpose of asking folks to submit to the work group, their thoughts on the matter. I'll take my canned, grandstanding and find a soapbox from where I might be able to some good.

All the best,

Michael

You do the reptile world no favors, in my opinion, if you disappear when the hard questions are asked. Sometimes, it seems to me that those who purport to look for answers are actually preachers having conversations with the choir.

I refuse to be a part of that. Some people have issues with various exotics including reptiles, some of them valid, some of them not. The valid issues cannot simply be brushed off with canned answers.
To tell someone who is justifiably afraid of the dangers associated with some critters that the problem is inconsequential and doesn't occur often is not going to decrease their fear.
The reason I present the difficult questions is because I do love critters, and I know that those are the questions that politicians are going to be faced with from their constituents.

I'm not the choir.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2l0xYc8zXvw

No, you may not be the choir, but you are not the only person reading this thread, (I hope!)

As to the disservice to reptile owners, name calling is truly unwarranted here. I'm wondering how the hand picked work group of 30 would appreciate their hundreds of hours being labeled as 'not having put any thought into it', when they have not as of yet been able to answer the very questions that you are asking here?

I agree that it is the very fear people have, real or imagined, that will drive our lawmakers to do whatever it takes to appease these folks. And this is were we could easily loose our rights to own 'our critters' of choice.

I will attempt to craft a set of examples and issues that are in the 'way' of a simple answer in the hopes that it will spark positive, constructive dialog. My goal with this is to paint the picture, as best as I can, that shows what the work group is up against. And maybe some real answers will start to formulate.