Time To Cool Off

Originally Posted by ravensgait

Rich , no rose colored glasses here lost them years ago. I remember how it was and what many of the problems were. But if there is a rock in the path why not just a few degrees rudder to port or starboard instead of a turn so hard you lose some passengers overboard.
And I'm not bitching at you or complaining or trying to tell you what to do.. I'm just telling it as I see it.

I believe I addressed this earlier. In many cases, the problems that appeared to be needing addressing were such that there was really no way to make just a minor course correction. It was kind of like the change from being not pregnant to being pregnant. You just don't get a LITTLE pregnant...

Originally Posted by ravensgait

Heck I've seen the same things you have and when you have proposed changes I've never been doom and gloom about them, I just wait to see how it works out and then bitch at ya I know you get these comments from lots of people but hey I'm not one of the bitchers as I see very clearly that it is your site, I may make a suggestion but you blowing them off doesn't bother me at all, heck I'm used to that my wife ignores my suggestions all the time !!

Sorry, I never felt I was "blowing off" anyone at all. What most people fail to realize is that when a change was being contemplated, I would put a LOT of thought into it, sometimes for weeks or more, before ever even bringing it up. During that time I would try to analyze every possibility I could think of and look at the foreseeable ramifications as much as was possible. Yeah, maybe you just thought of the idea you came up with, but in most cases, I had already thought of it, dissected the thought, and found the faults that caused me to reject it as a viable option. People did not realize that I had had WEEKS thinking about it, so it appeared I was rejecting their opinion without giving it any length of time for thought at all.

One particular change comes to mind, now thinking of it, and that was the MANY people suggesting that I charge for people to use the classifieds. If you will recall, I resisted this vigorously, stating that in my opinion it would be the downfall of this site. It was my opinion that traffic would wither away if I implemented that change as I felt the classifieds just were not that competitive compared to other avenues and people would just prefer to go elsewhere rather than pay ANY fee to use that aspect of this site. And I continued to keep that opinion for YEARS even though last year I decided that perhaps I was wrong and finally did take that suggestion and run with it.

I believe there is a thread in this forum about what apparently happened as a direct result of that particular change.

Originally Posted by ravensgait

I haven't run off because of your changes, I've been here except when too busy to spend much time here. There are a number of folks here that didn't get upset or run off for a while when you made changes and will likely be here after your next set of changes.. Randy

Maybe they will, maybe they won't. Seems to be par for the course that a goodly proportion of the members won't like the change, no matter what it is.

I guess I am completely at fault here because I just do not understand the resistance against change in general.

Originally Posted by KelliH

I really think it's just a matter of getting rid of some of the people that cause the problems here. Remove them from the equation, and you remove most of the problem. Also, run the site the way YOU want to. Of course some things will change over time, but I do agree with what was stated above about consistency being important. The most important thing though is to stop putting up with the blatantly off topic and offensive posts that are for the most part made by a small group of people. As long as they get away with it it will continue, however.

It's just not that simple. How many people would completely agree on which people to get rid of? Half of the people on this site probably breathed a sigh of relief when I banned Wes yet again. But on the other hand, the other half are probably convinced that I gave him a raw deal and didn't give him enough chances to remain here. And Wes was probably about the most polarizing agent that has ever been here! So what about others? What criteria would be universally accepted when applied for the purpose of deciding who gets booted and who does not?

And there is that word "consistency" again. Sorry, but that is just an impossible concept in the context of what it is trying to be applied to here. But that horse has been dead a long time and doesn't need to be beaten upon yet again.

And again, what exactly constitutes "off topic"? What posts will be considered as "offensive" to everyone where a unanimous decision will be reached on what to do about the person who posts such things? Heck we recently had what became a rather severe disagreement among some members about what constitutes profanity. The pivotal word in that disagreement was "scumbag", of all things. So going back to the previous paragraph, how could even something such as enforcing a rule for profanity possibly be consistent enough to satisfy everyone?

Sorry, but it just can't happen. Even if someone (or someoneS) could enforce the rules consistently and everything be run in what appears to the person(s) doing the running as being consistant, there is just no way it could ever APPEAR to everyone looking that it WAS consistant because of their own perspectives.

Man, am I making sense any longer? I feel the brain getting squishy feeling the later it gets... I guess the migraine yesterday didn't help matters much.

Originally Posted by Golden Gate Geckos

I think we tend to feel that freedom is implied in all that we do. This could not be further from the truth. Freedom is a priviledge that is earned, and not owed. We are all held accountable for our actions, and there are consequences for everything we do.... positive and negative. The rewards for good behavior are priviledges and freedoms. Unfortunately, it's those that can't seem to assume accountability for their own actions that dictate the freedoms for the rest of us.

That is not my perspective at all. Freedom is a God given RIGHT, not any privilege granted by some arbitrary authority. Freedom is something you implicitly have until you prove that you are not worthy to have it. Innocent until proven guilty sort of thing. Which is the manner in which I have chosen to run this site. I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt until they prove to me that they deserve no freedom here. No one has to pass any tests when they register on this site, or meet any requirements to prove themselves worthy of participating here among everyone else. There are NO rewards for good behavior here at all. Only sanctions and penalties if BAD behavior takes place. A member basically has to prove that they are not welcome here, rather than having to prove that they are welcome. That is the way freedom SHOULD work, and is the manner in which I have tried to provide true FREEDOM to everyone who comes here. You can say things on this site that would get you banned immediately on some others. Or else have your words deleted as if they had never been posted. As long as you don't prove that you are not worth being here, you will ALWAYS have that FREEDOM on this site.

Originally Posted by Golden Gate Geckos

Just my thoughts and observations, Rich... but, you don't care about this website as much as you once did. Rightfully and justifyably so. But, it shows. If you don't care about Fauna like you once did, it can't be expected for others to care, either. If you want to care about this website again, only you have the power to make it the place you envision it to be. If you are just too worn out, then you and the rest of us will simply have to accept what it has become.

I'm not sure I would say I don't care about the "website" as much as I have lost faith in the reasons for caring for some of the members. I certainly can't say ALL of them, but with every new revelation of yet someone else smiling the crocodile smile at me, forgive me if I have become reluctant to place too much faith in simply what someone tells me. Been too many times stabbed in the back by people I would not have expected such treatment from. And it seems a never ending parade of yet someone else who is not what they at first appeared. And for what? Because I have tried so hard to provide this site, particularly the BOI in order to help them? Because I have had to make tough choices in how I run things? Because some people just disagreed with those decisions? That is justification for the blades in the back and the slaps to the face? And people will ponder WHY I don't care about such people any longer and whether this site is beneficial to them because I have stopped giving as much of myself as I used to?

It's just not that simple. How many people would completely agree on which people to get rid of? Half of the people on this site probably breathed a sigh of relief when I banned Wes yet again. But on the other hand, the other half are probably convinced that I gave him a raw deal and didn't give him enough chances to remain here. And Wes was probably about the most polarizing agent that has ever been here! So what about others? What criteria would be universally accepted when applied for the purpose of deciding who gets booted and who does not?

I feel for you Rich, I really do. I think you just need to decide yourself what is best and go with that. If half the people here don't agree then that's their problem. It's your site, you need to decide how you want it run, what the rules are and how they will be enforced. Your mods have your back and will help you out with that too. Just make a decision on what if anything you want to change here, and then implement that change/changes. Of course not everyone will agree with you, but the ones that know and understand the value of the site will stick around, and adapt.

Originally Posted by WebSlave

It's just not that simple. How many people would completely agree on which people to get rid of? Half of the people on this site probably breathed a sigh of relief when I banned Wes yet again. But on the other hand, the other half are probably convinced that I gave him a raw deal and didn't give him enough chances to remain here. And Wes was probably about the most polarizing agent that has ever been here! So what about others? What criteria would be universally accepted when applied for the purpose of deciding who gets booted and who does not?

And there is that word "consistency" again. Sorry, but that is just an impossible concept in the context of what it is trying to be applied to here. But that horse has been dead a long time and doesn't need to be beaten upon yet again.

And again, what exactly constitutes "off topic"? What posts will be considered as "offensive" to everyone where a unanimous decision will be reached on what to do about the person who posts such things? Heck we recently had what became a rather severe disagreement among some members about what constitutes profanity. The pivotal word in that disagreement was "scumbag", of all things. So going back to the previous paragraph, how could even something such as enforcing a rule for profanity possibly be consistent enough to satisfy everyone?

Sorry, but it just can't happen. Even if someone (or someoneS) could enforce the rules consistently and everything be run in what appears to the person(s) doing the running as being consistant, there is just no way it could ever APPEAR to everyone looking that it WAS consistant because of their own perspectives.

Man, am I making sense any longer? I feel the brain getting squishy feeling the later it gets... I guess the migraine yesterday didn't help matters much.

While there will probably never be unanimous agreement about who is nice and who isn't thinking right and who should be banned and who should not be banned, I think that it would be possible to come up with a definition of civil behavior. As long as people stayed within some boundaries of civility plenty of topics could be discussed and debated by people of opposing positions without things breaking down to to the level of calling each other potty names etc. I know that there is a long history here that I have not witnessed and that my answer would appear simplistic to many but so it seems to me.

Originally Posted by WebSlave

Well, this could certainly be the silver lining to the dark cloud of the BOI. I have been trying to get the discussion forums active for YEARS now and have failed completely. So much so that had I had the time in the last couple of weeks, most would have been rolled together into single larger forums. In other words, I was intending to take ALL of the snake related discussion forums and just move all the post into a general Snake Discussion Forum. Same thing for all the lizard forums.

But if the ravages of the BOI instead force people to the Discussion forums, maybe this is a good thing in some respects.

I'll just have to see how that all plays out. With breeding season in full swing, it will be a while before I can address any such forum structure changes anyway....

I think that that idea might really work! I like it myself anyway!

but then... and im sure youve already thought this too... would people just get mad because their forums are now full of everyone, instead of just a select few? ( didnt this happen before with a member when you rolled together a forum last time? * and oh lookie, do they still post!? LOL)

A thought though on that, Maybe just less "snake, and lizard" forums, so... Boas/Pythons, Colubrids, Venomous ... and whatever lizard species there are and thats it?
That way, it would still be more organized, and post counts would still go up. a good middle ground and such. and you wouldnt really have to sort too much in those forums, so a little less work for you to implement it too.

I really liked the idea of you posting a Poll on whether or not to separate the Feeders, Caging, Supplies and Services section too... and maybe a vote on your idea here would tell you what the majority thinks?

But yeah, its busy time now. I just like posting thoughts whatever you do, ill still be here to enjoy the site.

The more I think about it the more I think that it may just be that the core members here have just been in one too many heated debates with one another. One too many stand-offs (for lack of a better term). So whether they want to admit it to themselves or not they just dont have that same level of respect nor a warm fuzzy feeling inside for one another like they used to.

A couple years back the pendulum was swinging more towards a higher level of respect and sense of community. Where as now the pendulum is swinging more towards a higher level of animosity towards one another. I think the heated exchanges and stand-offs over the years have worn on everyone and their ability to get along as well as they once did. I think that is why we see as much picking at each other from the core group of members here.

I know there is more to it than this, but I certainly feel this is a big contributor to how things are now. Hopefully all of us can take a step back and have an honest look in the mirror and try to be more understanding of one another. Because I honestly feel that the vast majority of the core members here are truly good people. If we all lived in the same neighborhood and knew each other by more than a message board that most of us would get along smashingly..... and could you imagine the block parties.

I agree Sammy,

We have a core group that have been around here for a while some since the beginning and it is this core group that make most the responses in threads like this. I guess since we've been here so long that some of us get to feeling we should have more say in what happens here. When we find out we don't some pull stunts like Mike Greathouse or as some others have done just disappear or seldom come here any more as a sort of protest. The ones who stay I would imagine feel a bit betrayed by those that left and add into that those who are trying to join the core group and the core group gets a bit pissy as we can plainly see. Add to that people like Chris Johnson and those like him who were part of the core and turned on everyone and destroyed some of the trust we had for each other. And again then you add in more site changes and is it any wonder we are where we are at now.. Heck I'm actually surprised we are not worse off lol...

As for the forums unless it cost a bunch to keep them separate I'd leave them alone . If you bunch them all together they will die as they have on other sites that had forums like that. They are failing that is plain to see and this time of year fewer people post there as the weather gets nicer. there has to be a way to improve participation we just haven come up with it yet.

I think as Sammy said we need to look at ourselves to see why we are here and for those that left but still look in here they need to look at why they really don't hang around here like they once did. Randy

Originally Posted by ravensgait

I agree Sammy,

We have a core group that have been around here for a while some since the beginning and it is this core group that make most the responses in threads like this. I guess since we've been here so long that some of us get to feeling we should have more say in what happens here. When we find out we don't some pull stunts like Mike Greathouse or as some others have done just disappear or seldom come here any more as a sort of protest. The ones who stay I would imagine feel a bit betrayed by those that left and add into that those who are trying to join the core group and the core group gets a bit pissy as we can plainly see. Add to that people like Chris Johnson and those like him who were part of the core and turned on everyone and destroyed some of the trust we had for each other. And again then you add in more site changes and is it any wonder we are where we are at now.. Heck I'm actually surprised we are not worse off lol...

As for the forums unless it cost a bunch to keep them separate I'd leave them alone . If you bunch them all together they will die as they have on other sites that had forums like that. They are failing that is plain to see and this time of year fewer people post there as the weather gets nicer. there has to be a way to improve participation we just haven come up with it yet.

I think as Sammy said we need to look at ourselves to see why we are here and for those that left but still look in here they need to look at why they really don't hang around here like they once did. Randy

Good post.
I have made thousands of posts here and as friction grew, posts (mine, and everyone's) declined. Finally, when I got a pointedly unfriendly reply to an innocuous post around Thanksgiving, I decided as did many, that it took a lot of effort to participate when there were a group of people bent on being uncivil outside of the BOI.
I would certainly look forward to a day when forum participation improves. This is now and has always been a worthwhile and outstanding site, I hope all of us working together can help ensure that it remains that way.

In my last post I see that I made several errors in spelling and grammar. My apolgies.