Time To Cool Off

Originally Posted by dsirkle

In my last post I see that I made several errors in spelling and grammar. My apolgies.

you should still be able to edit your posts, since you are a contributing member. i know i can still edit mine

Originally Posted by WebSlave

Freedom is a God given RIGHT, not any privilege granted by some arbitrary authority. Freedom is something you implicitly have until you prove that you are not worthy to have it.

In essence, I totally agree with your analogy, Rich. What I meant by what I said about freedom is essentially the same... just not as articulate as your post.

Originally Posted by Golden Gate Geckos

The rewards for good behavior are priviledges and freedoms. Unfortunately, it's those that can't seem to assume accountability for their own actions that dictate the freedoms for the rest of us.

Unless an adequate force is applied to restore order, the BOI will tend to the lowest common denominator.

That's because different rules apply on the BOI compared to the other Fauna Forums. Some people on the BOI are abusing their 'freedom' there, and don't seem to realize there are consequences. If the consequences are not warnings or suspensions, at least the general public gets to see a lot of the chronic abusers show their back sides, which will ultimately affect their reputations! If their behavior on the BOI results in negative consequences (ie: warnings and suspensions), eventually the message will be that freedoms to post whatever pops into your head is not OK.

When people act like animals on the BOI, it deprives other members from their freedom to read and utilize it for what it was intended.

Originally Posted by Mooing Tricycle

you should still be able to edit your posts, since you are a contributing member. i know i can still edit mine

Done. Thanks Moo. I had looked at someone elses post and naturally saw no edit button and thought "Too bad that I can't edit this."

Originally Posted by shrap

The more I think about it the more I think that it may just be that the core members here have just been in one too many heated debates with one another. One too many stand-offs (for lack of a better term). So whether they want to admit it to themselves or not they just dont have that same level of respect nor a warm fuzzy feeling inside for one another like they used to.

A couple years back the pendulum was swinging more towards a higher level of respect and sense of community. Where as now the pendulum is swinging more towards a higher level of animosity towards one another. I think the heated exchanges and stand-offs over the years have worn on everyone and their ability to get along as well as they once did. I think that is why we see as much picking at each other from the core group of members here.

I know there is more to it than this, but I certainly feel this is a big contributor to how things are now. Hopefully all of us can take a step back and have an honest look in the mirror and try to be more understanding of one another. Because I honestly feel that the vast majority of the core members here are truly good people. If we all lived in the same neighborhood and knew each other by more than a message board that most of us would get along smashingly..... and could you imagine the block parties.

Add to that the people who get tired of wading thru the pissing matches that pop in every thread. Its a shame when you have to dig through numerous posts because member A torqued off member B a year ago and member B brings it up in every thread member A posts in and vice versa. And its gotten / getting worse.

Seeing the endless pissing matches over nothing really detracts from what the main focus is. Add to that the endless posts of modified pics , sexual innuendos etc. etc. and you get a thread folks don't want to participate in much less want to read. I've had enough of the Jedi Twins sexual preference comments to last a lifetime.

Some may enjoy those style & type of posts , others don't. I , myself , prefer to find another playground. In the past year I've had to re-evaluate how I think of or the level of respect I really have for some members that were unquestionable to me at one point. I'm not sure if I'm loosing respect and tolerance for them or loosing faith in what I thought they were and represented. Its a shame to see how some of the good guys act these days. Makes me cringe really.

Those few that I still respect have , through all of the changes , remained steadfast and even keeled in the way they handle themselves. They are the consistency I've taken for granted from the good guys. Its those few that have kept me here. Without them , I'd likely have already left.

I am not a hugely outspoken member of Fauna. I tend to keep my comments that do not add to anything to myself for the most part.

What I do want to point out is that I agree that Rich has taken a less than caring attitude about what goes on on this forum, and that has changed my view on the entire site. Why should I care about what happens when the owner doesn't even care? Granted it may not be the case, but that is what I have consistently seen in the responses by Rich. It may be the fact that he is tired (as I have been and sympathize with). It may be because its just getting too down and dirty. It may be many things. I am just one person and what I see is how I call it.

I have seen a DRASTIC decline in any postings in any discussion areas, and in turn makes me less inclined to check the forum. It is a vicious cycle, as I know we all are aware. My personal respect for the BOI and such has gone down because of the bickering and blatant disrespect for the purpose it was made...

I just see a problem that has yet to resolve itself. I will be here. I am a member and plan to continue, but possibly less involved than I even was before. I do not see a reason for adding to the pile when there is a blazing fire already.

It is time to cool off, and re-evaluate what needs to be done to make this better...

There really aren't a lot of members that regularly cause problems. I would be surprised if anyone could think of more than 6. So for the most part the fauna members are respectful of each other IMO.

Originally Posted by Golden Gate Geckos

That's because different rules apply on the BOI compared to the other Fauna Forums. Some people on the BOI are abusing their 'freedom' there, and don't seem to realize there are consequences. If the consequences are not warnings or suspensions, at least the general public gets to see a lot of the chronic abusers show their back sides, which will ultimately affect their reputations! If their behavior on the BOI results in negative consequences (ie: warnings and suspensions), eventually the message will be that freedoms to post whatever pops into your head is not OK.

When people act like animals on the BOI, it deprives other members from their freedom to read and utilize it for what it was intended.

While that may be true, I have to ask what is the PURPOSE of the BOI? I thought it is to expose the bad guys, for the most part, with a secondary purpose of helping to put the spotlight on those people doing a good job at their business.

To expose the bad guys, you need to allow them to be themselves. If you want a perfect recent example of this, check out this thread -> http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...d.php?p=584700

Towards the end, the parties apparently at fault just went ballistic and showed the world just who they really are. Would the readership have been better served by STOPPING that behavior immediately, even going back and deleting the garbage they were spewing? While it may have made more pleasant reading for some folks, pleasant reading material is not what the BOI is there for.

Of course, some "good guys" apparently get caught up in this as well, and go way overboard. That is unfortunate, but we have to assume that the participants within that forum are adult enough and mature enough to know what they are doing. Myself and the moderators cannot hold up the "good guy yardstick" to measure up everyone, and to those who appear to be "good guys" step in and try to save them from themselves. After all, how many instances have there been on the BOI of someone who appeared to be a good guy over time proved not to be after all? How could we justify our intervention simply because WE felt that OUR determination of a good guy should overrule their own lack of good sense?

Yes, there IS a lot of garbage posted on the BOI. And yes it is commonly from the same small group of people. All those posts are evidence that prospective customers or or prospective sellers to those people need to have in order to qualify their decision to do business with them or not. It is all part of the TOTAL picture of that person.

Once a sufficiently detailed and graphic picture of someone has been painted by their own hand, then certainly they are going to be removed from the arena. There are many instances lately of overkill in this department, simply because I dropped out of the picture to see if the WS mods program would spur the membership into doing what everyone has been demanding that myself and the site mods do. Unfortunately, it did not work as I had hoped. I believe that most came to the realization that there are some substantial drawbacks to being the enforcer of the rules on this site.

So folks, the BOI is the way it is because that's the way it has to be in order to do it's job. People in there are fighting for their reputations, their business, and their livelihoods. Many will lie their asses off in their defense. What MY job is, and that of the site mods, is to allow the liars to paint themselves into a corner to give YOU the true picture of who and what they are. If someone wants to paint themselves in the corner along with the "bad guy", I'm sorry, but we are not going to stand in their way.

So if some of you find the heat in that particular kitchen too much for you, then by all means, bow out. There are an awful lot of omelets that need to be made, which means a lot of broken eggs will be flying.......

I know this post is about a month old now, but as a newer member of this site who is trying to establish my reputation, I felt the need to reply. Although you all, as long-time members, have great things to say, I think a fresh perspective may be appropriate here. Plus I am a loud mouth, and have to say something somewhere besides the BOI lol.

A small bit of history on why I joined Fauna. I had been a member of another forum for almost 4 years, one who, like most of you, was considered a "core member" in several areas. I spent a lot of time an energy there, trying my best to help out people with issues, and even forming a relationship with many like you all have here. Recently, the webmaster and I had a disagreement over his deleting a post of mine (I simply stated my opinion on the use of sand with certain reptiles), and when I stated publicly that I would be taking a break without saying what happened or with whom I was disagreeing, he banned me from the site completely. No warning, no anything. The word got out on the site, and several members were irate, and decided to leave, or stated enough of their feelings where they too were banned. He even banned my IP address from being able to view his forum from my home computers at all. So one of the members contacted Rich, told him the story, and we were told to head on over, and here we are. You will find a bunch of us in the bearded dragon and gecko discussion forums now, and maybe a few running around some of the snake forums too. Stop in and say hi, there are some very knowledgeable resources joining up now :-)
Now, I had some history with Fauna, as I had an issue a little over 2 years ago with Ray's Reptilia sending me a badly damaged tortoise (who is doing great now), and it was suggested that I post my experience on the BOI, which, at that time, I had never heard of. I had a great experience, the people were helpful, and I learned a lot about purchasing from someone I had never known without researching first. Most of my deals had always been local or with people I knew, and although some on the BOI were a little tough on me about my ignorance of my purchase, it was a good experience. Since then, I have been an avid reader of the BOI and other discussion forums here, but not a poster.
I have recently been participating in a BOI post about Dan Scalaro, and have to say, some of the things going on over there are insane! I know it is not just that post, as I read the other posts like I watch a car accident - I don't want to look, but have no other choice. I think the entire situation with the BOI and the out of control posts boil down to one thing - people need to learn to be adults. I have 5 kids, ages 14 down to 4 months, and I tell them all the time that they need to act their age. That is the same problem here (and on all forums really) - adults do not know how to be adults, and have to resort to the same things my children do to antagonize each other - name calling, insults and general stupid comments. The thing is, there is no way to control it over all. We can only control ourselves. If we want respect, we have to give respect. I do not know how it used to be here, but from what I am reading, respect used to be given. It seems that has changed. Sure, some of the things that some people say are great entertainment value (god how I love Chuck sometimes!), but take it as that - entertainment. Don't get goaded into dragging it on. Be adults. Plain and simple.
So I ask, why bitch about it changing to the way it is now instead of being proactive and changing it back? It is pretty simple, maybe easier said than done sometimes, but all you have to do is ignore the bullsh*t going on, keep the thread on track, respond with a respectable tone, and don't fall for the crap going on. Believe me, I know it is not always easy, but just pause and think before hitting that submit button. There is a reason for the preview button, too. Use it, read what you have said, and think about how it may come across to other people. Spell check and dictionary.com are always a nice thing too. The little red lines under words you post sometimes give a clue too. I'm a spelling nazi though, so...
For the business people out there responding to threads, remember that not only are people basing their opinions of you by your "good guy" or "bad guy" threads, but by the way you respond to other posts out there. There are a few people that I would not hesitate to do business with simply because they way they have responded to others on the BOI, and some that have great "good guy" reputations that have made me think twice about them just because of the way they handle themselves on a public forum. Your reputation goes beyond your animals and customer service. People judge you from all aspects, so if you want to seem respectable, BE respectable. The golden rule works in business, too, and people will judge you based on how you react online.
Now, am I always going to remain level-headed and keep myself looking like an adult? Probably not, as I am known to have my say when I want, and can be rather blunt and sarcastic. But I will at least try to remember the one thing that so many have forgotten - the internet does not go away. The posts do not go away. How I present myself online needs to reflect how I want people to see me in life, both personally and in business. So sometimes I have to tell myself to shut up, hold back, and breathe. That is what a lot of people need to do before submitting a reply. And if you come across those people that cannot do that, ignore them. As I tell my kids, people say mean things to get a rise out of you, and if you respond to them, they win, no matter what. Ignoring someone causing trouble will either piss them off more, or just make them go away. It works, believe me.
I think before turning on Rich about the changes he has had to make on the site, we all need to think about the great thing he has done here. He has created a place where people from all over the world who all love the same thing can come and gather, speak their minds, and share knowledge, experiences, hopes, dreams, pitfalls, and everything in between. We are very lucky here not to be over run by children who bring the value of the site down, believe me. That was a huge issue on the other forum I was a member of. BUT, on that note, we need to remember that we all have a love of this industry/hobby, even the kids, so they need respect too. We can only teach children and young people to have respect if we are giving it. I do not see this sort of thing so much in the discussion forums being an issue, but the kids can read the BOI too, and when they see adults acting like a bunch of insane monkeys, they think it is ok to do themselves. We don't want to be raising a generation of kids turning out to be like some of the idiots on the BOI, do we? Our reactions and actions go far beyond the adults we interact with, and I think some people need to be reminded of this sometimes. Call it the mom in me kicking in I guess.
Another thing Rich does not do, at least not from what I've seen, is censor us too much. Sure, there are rules in place for making sure things are not inappropriate, and there should be such rules. But our opinions are not censored, our thoughts are not censored, and just because we may not agree with each other, we are not censored. I was banned from a forum for simply stating my opinion. Several others were banned for the same thing. Be lucky that is not happening here. Be THANKFUL that we have what we have here, and give Rich a break. Being a webmaster of something so huge is not an easy job, I know I would not want it for sure! Instead of busting his balls, how about starting by trying to better things from within the community, and then going from there? See my whole respect rant above for a good first step
So, this is my rant. I hope it puts some perspective on how a newer member may view things, and maybe give some simple yet effective solutions to what is going on that we, as members, can control.
I look forward to getting to know you all, and to becoming a member of the core of this group hopefully.
Kelly

Wow, welcome to fauna Kelly!

Thanks, Laura!
I'm hoping that's a "wow, shes got something good to say" and not a "wow, what a freakin' loon!" wow. haha