Reptile Ethics, When do we say thats enough

Thank you for your reply Kevin

Yes My kids have delt with large constrictors on numerous occasions " always with supervision" as with any large potentially dangerous constrictor it should be done with at least 2 people. However I feel they are very capabable to handle one buy themself up to 10 feet if needed. Also they have delt with hognose snakes as well as several species of venomous that pose little to now risk.Again under direct supervision and with proper handling skills. I would never allow them to handle any of the " TRUE " hots until they are 1st over 18 and secound ready for it. By ready they would have to have my 100% belief they can handle it as well as 2 other keepers.

It is not OK ever in my opinion for a snake to be altered surgically.
I can go on for hours as to why but I will condence it.

The surgery is only done for profit first and foremost. It does cause mortality that is unneeded along with undo stress and physical deformation of the animal.Also it is still not proven but suspected that by doing the surgery it has determental affects on the ability to feed naturaly. Those are but a few of the reasons combine that mnay states including yours afford reptiles the same protection under the law they afford humans when it comes to medical standards and cruelty.

You bring Up EDUCATION. I will always support the educational value for safety of venomoids and have always said it is the ONE AND ONLY reason for them. So if your standpoint is you do it for that reason then are you only selling these animals to licensed Research or Educational facilities?

The differance between you selling a venomoid and other dealer selling a true hot is night and day . You know as well as any of us NO ONE that buys a true hot will mess with it the way people do with Venomoid. The true hot will be handled with all the proper tools and care. where the void will not. I grant you there are a few stupid fools that will grab a hot but very few. And normally a few conversations with a person before selling the animal will tell you that. It is your right to refuse to sell as well as sell.

As for the Press of a bite. We all know any bite or any attack from a constrictor will make the news. All we can do is take every precaution possible and to educate people.

Kevin, since you have decided to violate our agreement to end the former tread by coming on this one and making direct and indirect references to the former thread (and our business), I guess you were not finished with that old thread. Even though you did not DIRECTLY mention my name or company name, EVERYONE who reads this thread knows exactly who and what you are refering to, so I guess I am back in it...

You wrote:
>>Did I ever state that I did the surgeries, if I didn't, wouldn't that make it second hand and rumors since it was others that don't know me and have no idea what is going on that were accusing me?

No, Kevin, you never did directly state that you are or ARE NOT doing the surgeries? You were very careful to intentionally avoid the question as it was asked you repeatedly. So once again, ARE YOU, OR ARE YOU NOT DOING YOUR OWN VENOMOID SURGERIES???

It is NOT hearsay for me to post that YOU have told me that you trained under Ritchie Rich, and that YOU are doing your own venomoid surgeries. YOU have told me that on many occasions (unless you are willing to post that you lied). Ken also has stated that you do your surgeries. Is he lying also? Ken said you altered the monocle cobras within days of their arrival to you, and that they were doing fine. How you medicated them without your scale that you lent out is beyond me (or did you?). If you are NOT doing the surgeries, than why not simply post your statement to that fact??? Why let people bother you for something you are not doing, when all you would have to do is state that you do not do venomoid surgeries??? Some of us will know better, but some will not. If someone were accusing me of doing something that I know was not correct, I would clearly state that the accusation is false (as indeed I did with your accusation about the condition of the snakes I last sent you). If you choose to take a "maybe I do, maybe I don't" stance on the issue, you have to expect the responces you claim to get. So again, here is your chance to clear it up....DO YOU DO YOUR OWN VENOMOID SURGERIES??? HAVE YOU EVER????

You wrote:
"I know that the person the original post was about, is your friend and you have already showed greatly that you are going to defend him,"

Kevin, Ray Goushaw is a client of mine. Don't try to make it more than it is just because he does not agree with you. When he does not agree with me, he clearly states so, so rest assured that his opinions and posts have nothing to do with our business relationship. I never asked him to go on the BOI and post anything (unlike you said you were going to do on the former thread... You said you were going to have your friends post a bunch of crap about me or ERJ, but I noticed nobody came to your defence there). Just because someone has an opposing view from yours, does not make it a conspiracy against you. If you are doing something that you are not proud to stand behind, than maybe you should stop doing it. You should not have to dodge questions about what you do.

You Wrote:
"As for admitting to anything, why should I agree with the accusations?? I don't think you ever urged your friend to tell the truth about the condition of the animals sent out. "

Kevin, Ray did not have to ask me about the animals I sell, because he is here so frequently, and sees the animals here. That is why there was no question as to the condition of the animals I sent you. He knows how I do business, and knows I would not send questionable animals to anyone. He has seen me refuse to sell animals that came in poor condition. You, on the other hand, had twenty something pages of thread to prove your point by posting the pics of the animals I sent you that you claimed died, and all you did is lie, and post a pic of a Gaboon that looked like you MIGHT have tried to alter. What ever happened to the pic of the 5 foot gaboon that only weighed 4 pounds??? I would still like to see that one. Far to many people come in my facility for me to keep and sell sick animals. We are inspected regularly by a wildlife agent that does not even like venomous snakes, and would love nothing better than to put ALL venomous dealers in Florida out of business.
So to answer your silly remark, Ray did not have to "urge" me to tell the truth about animals I sent, because he already knows that I do not send sick animals.

You wrote:
" it is nice to see what rational debate has come from such an irrational original post."

Kevin, keep in mind who started that "irrational" post.... you did, and check your motives. You wanted to hurt me, then were upset, irrational, and embarrassed because your lies and game backfired on you.

Now, we can take this to any level you wish. If you wish to stick to the topic of venomoids, and leave me and the origional thread out of this like you said (and lied again) you would, then I will have nothing more to say. Otherwise, you are the one choosing to restart your "irrational" thread again, not me. It's up to you.
Let it go, or lets go...you decide. Now when yu call Ken crying, remember that YOU are the one that re-started this, not me.

Ray Hunter

I am not going to get into a flamewar with you Ray, you have proved that you will go to no end to try and get people to believe your lies. I never mentioned a name, I was simply answering a question, but it seems that the Rays are teaming up, so I am not going to even get in the middle of it. It is also funny that you have to mention so many other people's names and try to briing them into this, why Ray? Go ahead and rant and rave, but I am not going to play this stupid game with you. It is amazing that this was a nice intelligent debate and discussion and then you come on here to start crap. Post your lies Ray and have fun. this is a rational debate and you obviously bring no rational logic to the conversation. Have fun, bye.
Kevin Smith

PS-"DO YOU DO YOUR OWN VENOMOID SURGERIES??? HAVE YOU EVER????"

>>Do you send out sick animals???? Answer that Ray before you demand answers from me. Ofcourse Raymond is happy with his animals and happy with you, he can go down there and pick through the crap to find a few good animals. The rest of the crap animals are what you send everyone else that can't come down there personally. You have started so much crap over the first post on the original thread, if someone reads through the first thread, they can see how you brought up all kinds of stuff that had nothing to do with the animals you send out. You even said that it wasn't your fault and that I was lying, that is why I didn't post pictures. But then when I posted pictures, you went far and beyond because you couldn't come up with an excuse when there were pictures. Have fun Ray and Raymond, I am leaving this thread, I really don't feel like having a flamewar with them.
KEvin Smith

Kevin I will DIRECTLY answer your question of:
">>Do you send out sick animals???? Answer that Ray before you demand answers from me."

NO I DO NOT!!! and it appears that you are the only one that seems to think so. I have said that over and over but you are still trying to use that to avoid one simple question MANY people have asked you. And that is DO YOU or HAVE YOU DONE YOUR OWN VENOMOID SURGERIES???? I see you are still trying to side step that question. Why can't you simply type "YES" or "NO"???? Stop making a bigger fool of yourself by trying to rehash an issue you lost a long time ago. We know you killed the snakes trying to slice and dice them, and want to put the blame on me 10 days after you got the animals. This has nothing to do with Ray Goushaw, and you know that. I did not start the crap, you did by once again going back on your word to drop the old thread. I told both you and Ken that IF you dropped it, I would, but you once again lied. You can call me a liar all you want, but you offer no proof. All anyone has to do to see how often you lie is go back and read all your posts. The proof is right there. Just because a proven liar like you has called me a liar (among other childish names) does not make it so, but all the proof that you lie is in your own posts. You even admitted lying in your last post when you wrote:

"You even said that it wasn't your fault and that I was lying, that is why I didn't post pictures"

You are right, it is not my fault that you lie so often. You can't post the pics, because you know it was all a big lie. Again, I dare you to prove me wrong by posting the pic of the 5 foot gaboon that only weighed 4 pounds. If you sent me such an animal, I would have posted that pic so fast your head would spin. You can't because you know it was another one of your many lies. PROVE ME WRONG!!!!!

Now, then Kevin, I have done as you asked, and answered your question, Now how about you answering, DO YOU DO YOUR OWN VENOMOID SURGERIES??? Go ahead, again, I challenge you to answer a simple question. I bet you can't do it. Prove me wrong to everyone.

DO YOU DO YOUR OWN VENOMOID SURGERIES???

Ray Hunter

"We know you killed the snakes trying to slice and dice them, and want to put the blame on me 10 days after you got the animals."

>> who is this "we" Ray? you got a mouse in your pocket? I think most people that saw you totally lose it after I posted pictures of skinny dead unaltered snakes that came from you. As far as me being the only one with problems with you, NO Ray, I am not the only one. But most people just don't want to put up with all of your lies and crap.

The answer to your question really doesn't matter, If I say no, you are going to call me a liar, if I say yes, you are going to call me a butcher, and besides that, it really is not the issue at hand. The debate was whether or not people agreed with venomoids as a whole and if people are qualified to do them. I never brought you into this, YOUR FRIEND RAYMOND DID, he was the one that mentioned your name in the first place, not me. But I suppose even though you can read it for yourself, you are still going to call me a liar.

Well later Ray, I am going to go butcher some turkey.
Kevin Smith

You wrote:
" I think most people that saw you totally lose it after I posted pictures of skinny dead unaltered snakes that came from you"

Kevin, this lie does not even warrant a reply. Just go back to the BOI and re-read it for yourself (or maybe you better get a kifd with better reading comprehension skills to read it to you). Since you obviously wanted the issue re-opened, I re-opened the origional thread so you would not have to strain your little mind to find it and refresh your little memory. Now people can read it and see who the liar really is. Several people commented on the fact that the gaboon in that pic appears to have been either altered, or died in the process. Where is that pic you promised of the 5 foot gaboon that weighed 4 pounds???? I see you are STILL trying to side step that one.

You wrote: "I never brought you into this, YOUR FRIEND RAYMOND DID, he was the one that mentioned your name in the first place, not me. "


YOU brought me into this by bringing up the thread you said you were done with (NUMEROUS TIMES). Obviously you have the memory retension of a 3 year old, so let me remind you:

"when in reality I never said I did anything and all of this arose from a simple post of a bad experience I had with a wholesaler. All of the other rumors and here-say were brought up to take the attention away from the original post, which was done successfully"

This was before Ray Goushaw posted my name!!!! Then: "I know that the person the original post was about, is your friend and you have already showed greatly that you are going to defend him, but you don't have first hand knowledge of anything I do, so therefore you are not qualified to state that what you accuse me of is a fact"

Jogging your little memory yet??? No? well here's more: "I don't think you ever urged your friend to tell the truth about the condition of the animals sent out. "

Kevin, these are YOUR posts!!! And like I said in my first post on this thread, Direct or Indirect, it is reference to me, and the readers know it.

You wrote: "
The answer to your question really doesn't matter, If I say no, you are going to call me a liar, if I say yes, you are going to call me a butcher,"

Kevin, I already am calling you a liar, and the proof is in your posts. So why should you care what I call you. If you are not doing the surgery, state that for everyone, not just me. I already know that you are, it is others that want to hear you say it. If you are not guilty of a crime that someone accused you of, would'nt you say so??? or would you play "maybe yes, maybe no" because you are afraid someone might call you a liar. You ARE a butcher... Those of us who know your record already know this.

Yow wrote: "and besides that, it really is not the issue at hand. The debate was whether or not people agreed with venomoids as a whole and if people are qualified to do them"

You CLEARLY have shown us on the origional thread that you are far from qualified to perform surgery. You, who did not even realize (by your own admission) that you needed a scale to propperly administer antibiotics to a snake. You, who did not realize that pre and post op anitbiotics should be given to an animal that you are about to cut open. No wonder you killed those snakes!

Since your memory is so short, I will re-ask these at the end so you will be able to remember:

a) DO YOU or HAVE YOU DONE YOUR OWN VENOMOID SURGERIES?

b) ARE YOU GOING TO POST THE PIC YOU PROMISED OF THE 5 FOOT GABOON THAT ONLY WEIGHED 4 POUNDS???

Ray Hunter

ps- feel free to refresh your memory of the origional thread located at: http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...threadid=28577

Personally I do not want to see another war of the words. And this thread was and still can be very informative. For this thread I could careless about what condition any animals were in on arrival or who said what about whom. We all know the chances and risk people take buying imports and all the wonderful things that can happen to them from the exporter in a forein country to the sellers in this country. That thread is in the main BOI and where it should be left. Fight it out in there please.

Kevin: Ray has asked a question that I to am curious about. Do you do your own surgeries?

If so were you trained by a vet ?
What type of medications do you use?
What type of sterile conditions are implimented for the surgery?
What type of tools would you use to preform this surgery?

I have seen other pictures and posting on it but never was able to get a honest answer from someone that does it and would like to know more about it.

Thank you

Scott

Excellent point, Scott. I will keep it on the BOI thread that it started on. Let's see if Kevin can do the same (I know, I know, but maybe he'll surprise us).

I posted on the BOI thread before I got here. I see you WERE following and having an "intelligent debate". I give you credit for that part. As Scott pointed out to you and Ray H. we definately should keep this discussion along our original lines. In regards to the "inflated" prices.... I have to agree there. Anyone can ask what they want. So called "big name" breeders get more for their animals due to their reps and quality. I think what was being asked was IF the higher prices were due to mortality rates. I personally do not agree with "venomoids" for many reasons. However, I do think there are a few very rare cases where it might be justified? In regards to the possibility of envenomations from supposed venomoids...I know first hand of two instances. Both "kings" that several months after surgery could still deliver venom. This however, might and I repeat might have had something to do with the fact that at that time these surgical proceedures were in their humble beginings. It's not some "urban legend". It has happened, albeit rarely. Now maybe we can continue and refrain from the circus atmosphere of the previous.

I agree with your point completely. I am more than happy to answer questions for you, as you seem to be very intelligent and don't have other intentions. I will not answer or respond to any other posts from Ray. The only comment I will make is that just because an animal is imported, there is still no excuse to sell animals in the condition that they were sold by Ray. Glades,strictly,Jay at exotic jungle,ect all sell quality animals in good condition, I just have yet to hear an excuse from Ray that explains why the animals sold to me were in such terrible shape after 12weeks in his care?? I am curious to know if he knows how to treat his animals? If not, who does treat them? But I won't get an honest answer from that.
Anyways, back to the issue at hand. Could I perform the surgery? Yes, I could. I know enough about the surgery and have observed it first hand, so I know what is involved and how it is properly performed. It is not that major of a procedure, it is fairly simply. I am not saying that just anyone could do this and I am in no way condoning anyone to just go out and get themselves a scalpel, it is not that simple. There are some people performing the surgery now that I am not sure are performing the surgery correctly or at the level to minimize the chance of regeneration. I am of the opinion that it does not take a veterinary license to perform this operation successfully, it really depends on the knowledge and skill of the person performing it.
feel free to post more questions/comments and I will come back on later tonight or tomorrow to try and answer and comment. This is a good debate and I think that it should continue intelligently without flames or insults.
KEvin Smith