How long should the sex of a sold animal be guaranteed?

Originally Posted by Matt2979

Since you quoted part of my post, I'm assuming that you're asking me, specifically so I'll answer with my personal experiences. There have actually been 2 instances for me

I wasn't really aiming it at you, specifically. Just decided to use that little quote as a general preface to my post. But, thanks for your input. You addressed part of what's at the heart of my questions: The use of context clues vs. instant and (what I believe to be) irrational paranoia. Would the aforementioned small, close-up picture have satisified you if you had pursued her offer of proof, and that's what she provided?

Originally Posted by ApexPredatorBoids

I wasn't really aiming it at you, specifically. Just decided to use that little quote as a general preface to my post. But, thanks for your input. You addressed part of what's at the heart of my questions: The use of context clues vs. instant and (what I believe to be) irrational paranoia. Would the aforementioned small, close-up picture have satisified you if you had pursued her offer of proof, and that's what she provided?

Honestly, I don't know for sure how I would react in a situation that differs from what I actually experienced. I do know that if I felt I was being taken advantage of, I would have had the customer simply return the animal where a pic would not be needed. Should I prove to myself that I screwed up, the return shipping would be my loss, on top of the full refund.

Originally Posted by Matt2979

Honestly, I don't know for sure how I would react in a situation that differs from what I actually experienced. I do know that if I felt I was being taken advantage of, I would have had the customer simply return the animal where a pic would not be needed. Should I prove to myself that I screwed up, the return shipping would be my loss, on top of the full refund.

Exactly what had entered into my own mind as to what a fairly simple and reasonable fix would be. And it didn't even take me a few weeks to come up with it. If it turned out that you actually had sexed the snake properly in the first place, I assume that the buyer would not only eat the return shipping cost, but you'd also subtract the initial shipping cost from their refund?

I honestly have somewhat mixed feelings on this. I see your point, but I hate the idea of a completely open ended guarantee. Lets say I sell a snake that is supposed to be female but turns out to be male. If the mistake is caught right away, it is an easy fix. I can either exchange it for a true female of the same age (which I am more likely to have if the mistake is caught quickly) or refund the money.

If its months or years (possible if its not sexed till its breedable), then what? Do I owe the buyer a breedable replacement? What if I don't have one? How much should I refund? Do I owe them for the clutches they should have produced?

If I order anything else online, there's a time limit on how long I have to return it. If I get the wrong item but don't realize it for six months I'm probably out of luck. Its not my fault I got the wrong item, but it is my fault I didn't check in a timely manner (within the guarantee).

Originally Posted by FireStorm

I honestly have somewhat mixed feelings on this. I see your point, but I hate the idea of a completely open ended guarantee. Lets say I sell a snake that is supposed to be female but turns out to be male. If the mistake is caught right away, it is an easy fix. I can either exchange it for a true female of the same age (which I am more likely to have if the mistake is caught quickly) or refund the money.

If its months or years (possible if its not sexed till its breedable), then what? Do I owe the buyer a bedazzle replacement? What if I don't have one? How much should I refund? Do I owe them for the clutches they should have produced?

If I order anything else online, there's a time limit on how long I have to return it. If I get the wrong item but don't realize it for six months I'm probably out of luck. Its not my fault I got the wrong item, but it is my fault I didn't check in a timely manner (within the guarantee).

I definitely see your point. It is most definitely better for both parties to figure it out as early as possible. I have absolutely no argument against that statement. What I do not like is saying that my customer is SOL because they didn't catch my mistake early enough. What if they rechecked it as soon as they received it, but also got it wrong and don't realize it until after the seller's time-limit for discovery has run out. It was still the seller's mistake.

Now, I've been thinking about the question of what to do in the case of realizing it at time of breeding (over a year after the sell). While I don't think it's right to tell your customer, "Too bad, but you should have caught my mistake sooner", I do think that the buyer must take some of the responsibility by then. I'm thinking that a replacement animal from that year's clutch (or something comparable in current day's monetary value) would suffice. I know that I would not expect anyone to give me a cash refund if I discovered the wrong sex that long after the fact, BUT I would certainly hold a very negative feeling towards them if they told me, "Too bad, so sad"!!

I think something like "Every animal is guaranteed to be correctly sexed. If an animal is found to be missexed within (xx) days of purchase, it can be returned for a complete refund or exchanged for a replacement of the correct sex if available. After (xx) days, the animal may be returned for a credit towards a future purchase." would be fair. I'm just thinking out loud...I am in the process of writing a detailed TOS myself. I'm just not sure how many days to allow for a full refund. I'm thinking 14 days, though.

So just a short weight in on this, Im normally comfortable in my lurking status, but I did have a recent experience with just this issue.
I sold a pastel as a female, that was sold to me as a female about a year and a half prior, I checked the animal twice myself and given that it had passed from a breeders hands to another breeders I didnt have much reason to question my findings. The animal probed pretty shallow, but it was difficult to get the animal to relax.
Three months after I sold the pastel I get an e-mail saying the pastel had locked with a proven female while tubs were being cleaned, since I sold the animal without any solid TOS I figured I needed to bite the bullet and buy it back, mistake in sexing was my fault no matter the time passed. The owner took about a month to get back to me, he apperantly had a very hard time sexing the animal as well, eventually he got a video of sperm plugs being released when he tried to pop it. We met in person as the sale was a local one and exchanged his purchase price in full for the animal which I put back into quarantine.
A week later the animal started frothing and went rapidly down hill till he passed.

In the future, because of this I will email -everyone- who buys from me a TOS includeing a limited time to return.

I've got a curveball to throw at this discussion.

What If said animal was a Burm or other Lacey Act regulated animal that was legal to transport before the act and during the original sale, but no longer can do so because it's now in force. Not that it happened to me, but would be quite a curveball if my Hypo (Co-dominant) turned out to be female. That's why as a buyer I verified via probe. As a buyer I do take some responsibility to the verification of sexes. If I couldn't probe or didn't know how to sex an animal, It should be verified from a dependable source/person. Accidents happen, but sometimes a buyer should step up and take responsibility for it. I'm not saying a very short time to verify or a very long time. I myself give the animal some settle down time without any contact and then verify the sex within a few days(If it is a concern to me). The most important part of all this(in my opinion), is not the length of time in the sellers TOS, but how clear the TOS is disclosed. As long as both parties are agreeing to the terms, then handling a problem should be simple with the exception of some extreme circumstances. All people can do is be up front as possible to avoid these said scenarios. I like to make all deals in writing via email/text or the like, but then finalize it in person or on the phone for a personal touch. Seems like I have gotten positive responses from people in that regard because it protects exerybody. But in the end, sometimes it is best for the seller to eat the cost if it makes a happy buyer and the buyer may return as a customer.

Jacob

Then again if you are selling amphisbaenids it can go either way as they are hermaphrodites.

In the case of other reptiles however, sex is definitely one way or another. If one offers sex guarantee, in theory its a lifetime guarantee. However in actuality one must establish guidelines to make it enforceable. If it was sexed as a baby will it look the same as an adult? If not then how does one determine if it is the same animal if it is say grown to adulthood and was then found to be improperly sexed?

1. Define a standard to first verify that the supposed missexed animal is indeed the same animal that was sent missexed.

2. Either guarantee the sex of an animal or sell it as sex unknown. After all reptiles are not probably one sex or the other they ARE one sex or the other. I believe someone earlier in the thread said they charge a bit more for probable females. If they do and the animal turns out to be the opposite of what was proposed as probable they should then do a partial refund based on the percentage they charged vs. nonsexed.

3. Establish a time frame for the buyer to be able to make a claim of mistaken sexual identification. If people need sexed animals then they should be prepared to be able to confirm or refute the sex of the animal within a reasonable period of time.

Originally Posted by hhmoore

While the sex of an animal isn't going to change, regardless of whether the period is 2 weeks, 2 months, or 2 years,

Say that to a clown fish....