primate haters

EDIT (Sorry, I don't know if it's possible to edit posts....sorry)

After re-reading about the pit-bull and iguana thing- I have to rethink my opinion on her. I don't know that she should be owning this animal for two reasons:

1. Negligence of the other pets before this one.

2. Are you frequently sick? You do realise that primates are SO SENSITIVE to human illnesses...right? They can die from a common cold. If it was for a surgery, I can understand. But if someone isn't in the best shape- as in, they get colds/pox/flu a lot...That's a death sentence for a primate. At the very least, keep some latex gloves, wash frequently, and have plenty of germ-x and someone who can help care for them while you're sick.

I'd like to contest the theory that most people who keep these animals are doing so to have substitute kids. I'm really skeptical on that. I don't even know where that idea comes from- why aren't people patronising people who think their cute little puppy/kitten will stay an infant forever? Or how about those who dress their dogs up and push them around in a little stroller- then dump them when they get too big? Or those that overbreed toy dogs just so they can have something that'll sit up on their lap?

On another tune, the one about "tearing it away from it's mother".... Has anyone been around cows at weaning time? Being a cattlewoman, I can tell you that when those baby calves are "torn" away from their mothers so we can wean them in feedlots to be eaten at a later date, the mothers morn the loss of their babies for days. They cry and wander around the lot aimlessly, looking for their calf. But we do it so we can eat that big juicy steak at the end of the day....who are "you" to judge? Think about this the next time you are shopping for that hamburger....

Originally Posted by JeremyNicholson

I'm actually kind of amazed by some of the responses in this thread.

First off, nobody here has the right to comment on a psychologically damaging situation to any captive exotic animal. Along with this, claiming that 'primates shouldn't be pets', that is amazing.

Why doesn't anybody have the right to comment on the psychological ramifications of captivity?

I'm just going to take a stab in the dark here and guess that it's based off some "You don't know what the animal is thinking!" mentality. Which is just wrong.

Animal behavior is pretty well understood. Amazing, fascinating stuff and there are constant advances as a result of newer, better, stronger faster technology but the foundations haven't changed. Animal behavior is understood and understood well. Brain function and chemistry is understood, instinctive responses and environmental pressures are understood, the reason animals act the way they do and predictions for how they will respond to situations are all pretty clearly understood.

Some of the people defending this woman's actions clearly don't have access to that information and wish to rely on their uncertainty and anthropomorphism as a warm fuzzy blanket that insulates their argument from the cold truths (and boogie men) that have been provided to counter it... but they're wrong. The personal abject ignorance of animal behavior on the part of an observer doesn't invalidate the knowledge of others.

Keeping a lemur- an intelligent, active, highly social animal that has evolved to fit into a complex behavioral hierarchy- in an environment without any other lemurs is traumatic and damaging. It's animal abuse. It serves no purpose other than the gratification of the abuser and it shouldn't happen.

As to lemurs being pets... More often than not, the overwhelming majority of the time, they should not be- for exactly that reason. If someone out there really has the time, space and money to provide a suitable environment for them (three thousand dollars is not cutting it, that's laughable) and wants to keep twenty-fifty of them in a climate controlled, positive stimulus carefully balanced group in an enclosure bigger than most of our houses... nifty, have fun provided you have met the local legal requirements for doing so. Shoving one in a diaper and keeping it in a bird cage is not that though.

On a forum which regularly deals with much, much more dangerous animals (alligators? venomous snakes?) I'm amazed that anyone can call a judgment on someone for wanting to keep any animal.

Wanting to keep an animal and keeping an animal are very different things.

The needs of the animals people here keep are being met. Mostly anyway, obviously there will be some registered users out of the fifty four thousand who are not providing appropriate care... but most are. That means they are providing the correct environment, the correct diet, appropriate health care and appropriate behavioral stimulation. A venomous snake is actually pretty easy to care for with a little bit of planning and preparation. It's a lot easier to keep a hook and some locking cages than it is to keep twenty additional lemurs. Both are required, for their respective species, to be keeping the animal in a safe and appropriate way.

And for what it's worth, most people shouldn't be keeping alligators either. For some of the same reasons they shouldn't keep lemurs... the space and expense required to do so exceeds what most people are capable of providing.

I can understand if she was keeping an ape. Lemurs are not apes.

I don't recall anyone saying they were apes. Primates... not apes.

Where's your personal cutoff point for feeling it's necessary to meet an animal's behavioral needs before you're willing to abuse it? I'm guessing you don't think it's okay to mess with chimps based on the ape comments, but you clearly feel it's okay to isolate a lemur until it's utterly broken... Where do you draw the line? Someplace in the middle of monkeys? Gibbons?

You obviously subscribe to a different set of ethics than I do. I won't even keep schooling fish isolated.

I'm not going to tell someone what animals they are and are not allowed to have. I'm not going to pass judgment.

I don't think anybody said she wasn't "allowed" either. The law for her state says she's allowed... people have just commented on weather or not she should based on her ability to provide for the things it needs to stay healthy. She can't keep it healthy, she should not be keeping it.

You, as the owner, should be committed to doing what is best for the animal. NOT what makes you sleep better at night.

And what is best for a lemur is being in a large group with other lemurs. Behavioral health is part of "health."

I'm not going to patronise this 'crazylady', I think she needs some help with understanding these animals and how to more properly care for them. Insulting her, calling it 'cruel' to own a lemur, and then turn around and give a snake barely any room to move around- that's so hypocritical it's laughable.

People have called it cruel to own a lemur in the manner she has decided to own one.

And calling her out on not providing for the needs of this animal while maintaining other animals in a manner which meets all of the requirements to keep them healthy, physically and behaviorally is only hypocritical if you're profoundly stupid and have no knowledge of biology.

The needs of one species aren't identical to the needs of another species. In this case, the animals you compared are vastly different- the upper echelon of intelligent mammals is going to have more complex behavioral health needs than the least social, least active, least intelligent of the reptiles. It's like comparing apples and... algae.

i did not start this thread to piss any one on this board off, get anything started or cause any problems.
i am having his teeth filed not pulled. this is not as cruel to them as you think, they actually do this at the zoo's also. i know this because i did call the montgomery zoo here in alabama, i also contacted a man at duke university who said they have them filed for the protection of not only the staff but for the saftey of the other lemurs. when mating season hits they can and will hurt the female with their canines. thats why they are filed. he is being fixed because i have no need to breed him. and since he willnot be bread he does not need to go threw having the need to want to produce. i am sorry that i have upset so many of you, all you have to do is say the word and i will no longer be on this board.
as far as me being sick, i have problems with my blood being to thick, no i do not get colds easy or anything like that. it is not something that anyone or anything can catch. i have been on blood thinners for over 10 years, i have been hospilized a few times for this because either my blood thinner was not strong enough or i got a bruise (clot) that wouldnt go away and had to be watched untill it did sothat it wouldnt go to my lungs or heart.
yes it was a very bad judgement call letting my friend bring her dog over with me not at home to feed my babies, i agree with you there. its not something i can go back and change. if i could i would in a heart beat!
everyone on this board has some type of exotic pet or you wouldnt be on here. if you were to go to another board that doesnt agree with you keeping your reptile and some of the members on there called you a idiot, crazy,a moron or stupid for having your pet what would you tell them?
as far as his outside cage is concerend, yes i did only spend 3000 on it. all i had to buy was the material. my husband built it himself. it is not a small bird cage by anymeans. when he is in it he mostly stays in the part that is in the sun. we have 1/2 of it shadded. he will sit up and sun bathe. it is built around a young tree that he climbs up in. like most lemurs he spends most of his time on the ground. yes i do put diapers on him when he is inside. he doesnt seam to mind me putting one on him. i think that if he didnt like it he would not let me put it on him so easily. i know that as they get older they can have behavior problems, i knew that when i got him. i also know that having him fixed will prevent some of that. any animal can have behavior problems that doesnt stop people from owning them and it shouldnt. i am sorry for those of you who do not agree with me. you have that right. no one person is perfect. no one pet is perfect.
teresa

i also contacted a man at duke university who said they have them filed for the protection of not only the staff but for the saftey of the other lemurs

You are aware that's a research facility, right? Those lemurs are not there to be cuddly friends, they're for experimentation. I'm fairly sure the monkeys we have here also have had their teeth filed - probably during the same operation while they were putting in the brain implants.

There's a big, big difference between an animal in a research facility being used to advance the state of human knowledge, and possibly to cure human diseases, and a pet you got on a whim.

everyone on this board has some type of exotic pet or you wouldnt be on here. if you were to go to another board that doesnt agree with you keeping your reptile and some of the members on there called you a idiot, crazy,a moron or stupid for having your pet what would you tell them?

Nobody, on any board, has ever criticized my choice to pets. A large part of it has to do with the fact that their care is clearly exemplary, but it also helps that I work with my critters in a research context as well.

yes i am aware what that it is a research facility. the fact is they have their teeth filed for their saftey regardless! no i didnt get him on a whim! you know nothing about me at all, except what you think you know. no one on here has criticized your choice of pets, that doesnt mean people who are aganist the ownership of exotic pets wont. woop d fuckin do you do research on your pets the same way as many people do. that doesnt make you any better than any one else in this world now does it?
just what type of exotics do you own?
how would you like it if some told you that after you did a piss poor job taking care of that animal send him/her the dead body so they could stuff it? you are so quick to judge me ok my turn to judge you! i think you have a piss poor attitude toward anyone that doesnt agree with you. guess what i dont agree with you and really dont give a fuck if you like it or not. you dont have to like me, you dont have to agree with me, you dont even have to respect me. you are just one little person in the big ass world. and no it doesnt revolve around you.

Wow. Just.. Wow.. You are really no better then those 14yr olds on Springer who want a baby. YOU DUN NO ME! I DO WUT I WANT!

A research facility and a pet are two different things. If you don't understand that, you shouldn't be allowed to damn any pets.

You are LOVING this attention you are getting and I wouldn't be surprised if you are just trolling here. Personally, I own exotics. I own many lizards people would call dangerous. They have their natural teeth by the way. I work with venomous snakes who are not venomiods or fangs pulled. Animals were not put here on earth to modify to fit our selfish needs. If you can't keep the animal as it should be, don't get the animal.

As far as someone asking me to send me their animal to stuff, I prefer to do it myself, thank you very much but anyone wanting a stuffed tegu or viper and is willing to pick up the body is welcome to any dead pet.

Are you 5? Seriously? I think my 4yr old cousin is more mature then you. Knows to keep her animals un-modified and everything.

If you don't like what people are saying and getting sad because no one is coddling you, perhaps you should find a different board to post on. The more you reply, the worse it's getting for you.

i never said i want a baby. i have 3 children of my own. i call all of my pets my baby that does not in any way mean that i want a baby.oh yes i love the attention! wtf? as far as my age im 32. i have not ask for any one to coddle me in any way. as i said before i posted this because it said it was a place to rant about what ever was on your mind and that day this was (or part of this anyway). the only part that is sad to me is the way some of you feel it is your place to treat a human being like crap. belive me i loose no sleep at night over the way some of you think i am.

yes i am aware what that it is a research facility. the fact is they have their teeth filed for their saftey regardless!

The point is that they are filing the animal's teeth to safely do work that benefits the entire human species, as opposed to mere self gratification.

woop d fuckin do you do research on your pets the same way as many people do. that doesnt make you any better than any one else in this world now does it?

Allow me to rephrase: Hi, I'm one of the top ten experts in the world on snake locomotion, and my scientific publications are the *only* decent information in existence on arboreal snake locomotion. I'm currently at an Ivy-League university, and my work on frogs will have implications throughout the entire field of biomechanics. Oh, also, the research equipment costs a fairly modest quarter-million dollars, and is unique in the world.

So, tell me again how other people do "research"?

just what type of exotics do you own?

Snakes and lizards, mostly.

how would you like it if some told you that after you did a piss poor job taking care of that animal send him/her the dead body so they could stuff it?

I'd point out the former is demonstrably false (both by published care standards and the fact that I've had one of my animals for 17 years straight), and I'd politely decline the latter, since I have access to everything I need to skeletonize my own pets, once they die, or section certain specimens. After all, I've only got 6 live pets, but over the years, I've accumulated a collection of preserved and skeletonized specimens spanning over 150 species.

Speaking of which, I've got a frog I need to skeletonize, and I really should start sectioning some of the scavenged critters I have in my freezer for my side project. Keep an eye out, you'll probably read about it in Nature or Science in the next few years.

how lucky you must be to just be you! how do you ever put a hat on that big head of yours? since you are just so perfect and never wrong it must be great behond compare. how do you even wake up in the mornign without looking in the mirrow and telling yourself "im just the biggest head of all times!people of your statue ned to be put on a shelf and not alowed to speak!