Has this ever happened to you,,?

I have an idea, when Seamus finally does get on, and he will. Maybe we should take it to a chat room. Maybe his scrolling will at least be shorter.

Not a bad idea Stardust

Hey, if he wants to wear his fingers down, trying to justify why he is an all knowing pompus a$$ to everyone,, I say go for it,,, I always skip over anything he has to say anyway,,, when i see him banging his head on the desk, i know to scroll down past it,, not worth reading....

True Joe, I just skip to the next page since I figure his response is taking up the remainder of whatever page I am on.

He must be a lawyer, the only people I know who will use 20 words to say what normal people do in 5. They call it boilerplating we can just call it "hot air envelope"

Dragondad, you confuse me.

This is what I said.

this has affected Petco in no discernable way.

Then you said this.

Petco wasn't harmed the industry wasnt harmed

I don't see what you are trying to say.

I guess they just got a few more that were destined for San Fran area right

Maybe not, but those animals are still sick and dying. They have not benefited at all. The only thing she changed was where they die.

Did she kill the industry or are we just going forward.

That's just it, nothing is going forward. She has not improved anything except PETA's arguement. I'm not "looking for the evil." Evil is a religious term. If you cannot see the far reaching implications of this, then it is not I who should wake up.

And you MM, shame on you to be on a telemarketers side because that is your softness, but not on the side of someone who is being called names.

Rozann, I was not on telemarketers' side because of any softness. It was because of the justification used to treat them like crap. If you are a jerk, and act like it, then that is fine. But to claim they deserve it and should expect it because or their job is crap. I'm not on the "side of someone who is being called names" because Seamus has not used any sort of pseudoreasoning to justify the terms he used. Seamus, in fact, has also been called names. I have heard psuedoreasoning to justify this, however.

Mixing potting training a toddler to educating a corperation. LOL Now that IS good. But I wont get into that now

Please, get into it. I would like to see what makes this comparison so funny to you.


Is anyone able to attack the arguement? Here it is again, incase it has been lost in the recent morass of juvenile antics.

Marcia did not improve the lives nor health of the animals. She did not cause any damage to Petco. She did give PETA one more thing to use as an arguement that pets should be banned. Someone please tell me where the good in this is? What about this is to be congratulated?

One thing we are all forgetting while the stabs continue and great one liners have me on the floor in stitches. sarcasm
yes animals are first
what happened at petco 'could' start a snowball effect
and to answer a question posted a while back about how many animals would it take me to get involved???? one. gee a surprise there
education and diligence pays off its up to everybody that 'knows' to educate on this hobby to ensure that our rights as responsible herpers are not infringed on.
Oh and another thing go back and read some of Seamus posts on different threads, he is smart.
No I am not defending anyone I am speaking my mind
word to all that can't stand the 'rantings' of Seamus , When and if he steps over the line he will be banned also this is a free site, if ya don't like the rantings don't read them

Amen Richard

For now Richard, she did help the animals that were there and some of the corruption behind it.
You know I went outside and didn't hear PETA having a party somewhere. PETA are over the top activists, way over the top. They are too concerned with the next demonstration.
To be so paranoid that there are all these little peta lurkers (LOL, sorry just imagining it) crawling around is crazy too. One person is not going to be the end all of herps. PETA is not now walking around holding up Marcia for being their savior. Gee why didn't they think of this a long time ago.
What do you propose MM? Just sit around and let everyone do what they will? You don't think these stores, or careless owners or people selling to non responsible people is a heck of a lot worse than what Marcia did for the industry? All the people who give up their pets? The people who cut off the tails just so the animal is within limits of the law?
What do you propose MM? Please tell me............ oh wait, you are not the king................ just the pawn.
And I am having a sound off with my antics thank you very much!

Other than just using the word pawn and king, I do not believe I have called any names here. Stating my opinion. Didn't say he wasnt smart either, just needs to the the a$$ out of smart at times.


Coulda, woulda, shoulda

got to pick up one of my kids now, it was fun!

Since we've drifted back and forth a few times, I'll make my comments general rather than quoting specifics.

I ascribed adjectives to Marcia and Marcia's actions because I believed them to be true. She has assisted in something that could potentially be pretty bad for everyone. Some laws or amendments have passed, others are in legislation all over the country and were instigated, at least in part, by the fact that the Petco lawsuit got a good deal of press time considering what else has been going on in the world and will likely continue to do so as the wheels of the legal system grind forward.

The care sheet law in California is an easy to see example of the aftereffects as are proposed laws that would change animal owners from "Animal Owners" to "Animal Guardians" and start prosecuting animal violations as if they were child abuse situations.

All of it is a tip of the iceburg situation however. Laws and restrictions have been a problem in isolated communities and certain states for years now, senseless legalities imposed by naive people that don't have any positive ramifications. There's no point in making laws that can't be enforced and there's no point in making laws that fail to bring about their intended goal. Since the Petco issue is high profile, it not only spurs other communities into following suit and changes the general attitude of the public (Not herpers, the masses of people who might have watched an episode of croc hunter) and sets a dangerous precident should the lawsuit succeed. Both for other existing stores and other potential stores, the profit margin is razor thin for pet retail anyway, the last thing shop owners need is a lawsuit started by people who don't know any better claiming it's cruel to keep tarantulas in deli cups or snakes in rack systems.

Was my language strong? Yes, of course it was, it's a situation I feel strongly about.

Are Marcia's feelings hurt because I said she helped PETA and participated in something negative and made a moral judgement about the nature of her character based on her deffense of her actions even after evidence was presented explaining that they were probably bad actions? Is she really losing sleep over the fact that I think she was naive and ignorant and commited acts that are a danger to the hobby and the animals and didn't actually accomplish her stated goal of helping the geckos?

Somehow I doubt it really had that much impact on her. She seems to regard me, quite rightly I might add, as a loudmouth, so I doubt she's affected by my words in the least.

With regards to me being all knowing...

I'm nowhere even close. But I know herps and a few other things pretty well and can support my arguments with logic mixed with a healthy dose of opinion. I learn things easily and enjoy knowledge, if you don't care to see what I have to say, just skip the posts or don't bother opening them in the first place, it's entirely your choice.

As to my personal experience, my animals, my education and my basis for speaking my mind and what has formed my position on this (and other) issue(s)...

I've got experience with a fairly wide range of herps although I have my personal favorites of course, I've got a small private collection I am not a major breeder and olny undertake projects that appeal to me I've got an education, judge it's worth for yourselves and I speak my mind because... Well, Rich hasn't kicked me off the site yet. I'm also not too inclined to spread any details around to people who seem to want them in order to prove that my words are worthless while not meeting the standards they want to set for me themselves (No doctorate here but then... no doctorate for any of those trying to call me on it either). There's some information about me scattered around on this website, there's only five hundred odd posts, sift through them and you'll get some ideas.

The Micrurus surinamensis are not a species I own by the way... would love to at some point but they're hard come by.

My point on this thread is and has been that Marcia's actions did not produce any positive effects but have produced some negative effects while aiding the potential for many more negative effects in the future.

There's a line between wanting to help an animal and wanting to punish the animal's owner or "help" it by making it more difficult to obtain in captivity. The educational attempts which, despite the target crack, would have helped the animals and made the situation better, failed due to her own actions after the fact and her own inability to look at the larger picture and see the ramifications of her actions. She still seems unable to conceptualize just what she has done, dismissing the threat as nonexistant to justify her actions.

There was a person I worked with at one point who, through the course of an unrelated conversation, mentioned that they donated money to HSUS every year. They had no idea what the organization actually did, but they asked for money to save puppies or something so they were given a decent amount (Not billions but a hundred a year is something). An otherwise educated person who agreed with my position about legislation that makes animals more difficult to own was completely unaware that they were helping something they disagreed with.

Marcia and anyone else who supports the larger actions against Petco is doing the same thing... they're helping further the agendas of those organizations that want animals banned from being kept in captivity. Their contributions might not be that billion dollar blow that topples the reptile industry, but every battle lost is a battle that hurts and leaves the industry wounded when the next round starts. Every battle is important and I see her as being lined up facing the wrong way on this one.