Current Status of the Reptile Industry

I think the difference between a hobby breeder and a business is long-term plans, and the way you manage it. There's a difference between running a small-scale breeding operation just for fun, or for a little side money, and coming up with a long-term business plan, and just happening to be in the startup stage. One of those differences involves expanding every single year (something hobby breeders can't do, because they have no intention of getting larger facilities when they run out of room), and buying and breeding animals for their investment qualities rather than 'oo pretty' qualities. I don't think it has anything to do with the current size of an operation. I started out with 4 snakes the year before last, and now I have over 40. I think that's a fair expansion rate. By this time next year, our collection may have more than doubled, and it will be time for house-hunting.

You haven't really said WHY you think someone should have to be able to keep all of the babies they produce in order to produce them. It doesn't make sense to do so from a business perspective, and even for a hobby breeder, it's unrealistic--most folks expect their hobby businesses to largely support themselves too. I realize you think you've explained yourself, but this one final point is still unclear.

Originally Posted by WingedWolf

You haven't really said WHY you think someone should have to be able to keep all of the babies they produce in order to produce them. It doesn't make sense to do so from a business perspective, and even for a hobby breeder, it's unrealistic--most folks expect their hobby businesses to largely support themselves too. I realize you think you've explained yourself, but this one final point is still unclear.

YES I have, several times. You just chose to ignore the reasons I've stated. It makes perfect business sense. How much did '08 mojave girls go for last year? How much are the 1000+ gram mojave girls being sold for this year? You obviously aren't up to speed on the market as you think you are. Because if you think it doesn't make good business sense to raise up animals and sell them later, then you don't get it. So I guess not selling the baby at $750 and keeping it for a year and selling it at $1500-$2000 is a bad business decision?

Ok lets see.

The market is what it is. I always wonder why a person that says they are not in it for the money but they are so worried about the market complain so much. Not that the person is a bad person just they are confused IMO. Why worry about the market if you are doing it just becuase you love to produce animals. Who cares what they sell for.

Now on the other hand being in it to make money is NOT WRONG no matter what anyone says; and if you are then awesome. That also does not mean that you do not love the hobby. But you should keep up with the market then. As you live by it!!!!!

But to flip flop and tell people they are wrong for breeding single codoms to normals or they are selling to low is stupid IMO.

Who sets the market? Who says what it should be. Who says what way things should be done.

To complain about it just makes it worse. Breed what you love and be proud of it.

Do I love the crashing prices. HELL NO. But at the same time me complaining about it all day everyday just makes me look stupid. I will not give them attention becuase you know what. They will sell it for the price they want and people will buy it too!!! Just look at many many people that rip people off. They still sell now!!!! So what is complaining about it all the time going to do.

I will tell you what I am going to do and what I have done. Mind my own business. Sell for the price I feel the animals are worth and keep doing what I do. I am not sure about all of you but I do not have time to complain about every little thing I see everyone do all day. If joe blow wants to seel albino balls for 10 bucks. Whatever, becuase no matter what I say, he is still going to do it.

The market is what it is. And when you tell a person they can not sell something for what they want it is borderline price fixing. Not saying it is but it is borderline..................

I still will price my animals like I have always done. Worry about myself and let the others worry about whatever they worry about...........

Gary, those were some wise words and observations. I highly agree!

To complain about it just makes it worse. Breed what you love and be proud of it.

Best thing that's been posted in this thread!

Mojave adult girls have been seen for 1200, not 2000. I saw one just a couple weeks ago at that price. Yes, it's true--by keeping them, you can get more money for them in a year--probably. However, as I pointed out, by not keeping them, I can use the money to buy more animals now. If I invest that money in more adult females (which at this stage is all I've been buying), then figure that in--because suddenly a mere $500 extra doesn't look nearly as good as the $900 I would get from the offspring produced by just ONE normal female bred to a male I already have. Of course, $700 would buy me at least 3 of those. Does NOT make sense to hang onto the hatchlings to sell them later.
Down the road, sure...but not at this stage. I can get a LOT more return from selling them now, and reinvesting the money wisely. Even if two of the girls fail to lay, I still wound up making a lot more money than I would have by waiting a year to sell.

An important thing that should never be forgotten, not just when you're selling animals but in any business--the producer does not determine the value. Ever. Something is forever and always worth ONLY as much as someone else is willing to pay for it. The market is determined not by what breeders think their animals are worth, but by what BUYERS think the animals are worth. That is just the way things are, and always have been.

In MY opinion, the correct price is one at which things are selling, slowly. If they sell quickly, the price is probably too low. If they don't sell at all, the price IS too high. As supply increases or demand drops, prices will fall--if they don't, people just won't be selling any longer. That's a lose/lose situation.

You're always going to have people willing to undercut in order to make quick sales, and they have every right to do so. The fact that it makes them unpopular with other breeders is pretty unlikely to dissuade them. Are they being unwise? Probably. Are they doing something 'wrong'? Of course not. There is nothing WRONG with undercutting the market. That's why it's a free market. They could be doing a lot better--but that's their choice to make. If you want to do better than them, you'll just have to produce better animals that people are willing to pay more for. It shouldn't be difficult, as most of the people seriously undercutting the market aren't doing much in the way of selective breeding.

Bill, I understand your view on holding back animals better now, I really do--but as I've pointed out, it's more complicated than the mere final price, so I just don't agree with it. It's a good strategy in the long run, don't get me wrong--one I'll probably employ myself with select morphs, down the road--but it's not a strategy for someone who's just getting established. It's much wiser to invest the money back into the business now than it is to wait to get just a few more bucks in several years.

Originally Posted by WingedWolf

Bill, I understand your view on holding back animals better now, I really do--but as I've pointed out, it's more complicated than the mere final price, so I just don't agree with it. It's a good strategy in the long run, don't get me wrong--one I'll probably employ myself with select morphs, down the road--but it's not a strategy for someone who's just getting established. It's much wiser to invest the money back into the business now than it is to wait to get just a few more bucks in several years.

First off, I know off several mojaves that sold for $2000 plus this year.

Second, it's not several years. It's 1 year or less to get a female to 1000 grams.

Anyway, it's obvious we will agree to disagree. I'm done, have fun.

Well folks as a old hippie once told me grow your own its cheaper(Rats) that is haha. I have to agree with Bill & Amy small or large you have to be prepared to suffer thru the good times of fistfulls of cash for the couple snake Investments you talked your signifigant other into buying remember.Well I am saying dont buy all the snakes if you cant feed them ,I find more than money is my time cleaning rat cages or undigested rat mounds Ewwwwww.I really dont like to get rid of them any way so I damm sure wont give them away.I got into snakes in late 2005 and prices of the snakes was a Very Big Deal when I decided to get a new snake,I really think If you are a Honest man or women with Integrety you will get a solid price out of your product if you are a Creep you might Jack a couple people with some Shitty snake but Karma is a Bitch my friends and it all comes back 3 fold .We all must take pride in our Animals and they in return will bless us with some awsome creations.
Peace to Everyone
The Tinman

I generally try to stay out of the way on these types of topics but I have actually been in something long enough to have a little bit of wisdom. I am getting old ........

A not so wise person who happened to be very talented at this hobby told me some 20 years ago that if this is a hobby to you then your goal/expectation should be to "feed for free". His point being that most other hobbies consume money but this one, if you are diligent and careful, will actually pay for itself. Go ask an RC airplane guy if that happens to him someday. You might get hit so use caution.

Over the first couple of years I spent in the snake keeping and breeding hobby I found some startling wisdom in this. Seemed like if I did a good job feeding, cleaning and breeding my animals they would reproduce most of the time and once I sold off the offspring and did the math they fed themselves plus some extra. Sometimes I sold them fast and cheap, sometimes I worked at it and got a little more. Same applies today. Right now I wholesale them out fast and cheap. Time constraints dictate it. Next year I might work harder at it- who knows? The "extra" was of course immediately reinvested in the hobby (what else would a 17 year old do with money??) and it still is today. Nothing has changed.

Like many industries, this one saw a bit of a bubble. Many newcomers did not know what to make of it and just a couple of years ago it seemed no end was in sight. Fast and loose money/credit/hype over inflated prices but we were willing to pay them. Well, now we have found the end. Not to the hobby or even the "feed for free" but to the free ride. Reality is back for the most part and now the hobby is going through some growing pains because of it. Pretty colors and dollar signs helped over accelerate the "normal" growth rate of this hobby and every peak has a valley behind it. Something to keep in mind- a snake is essentially worthless. You can not (in most cases?) eat it, cloth yourself with it or use it for shelter. You know, basic human needs? It has one purpose on this earth and that is pest reduction. That food chain thing. WE have created its monetary value. What is a snake really worth to you?

Who here is really serious and who is just in it for a pet? Nothing wrong with having a pet or two or ten but do you really expect them to pay you and should you? Serious hobbyists will persevere the huge influx of animals on the market, they will feed for free plus some extra if they use some common sense and they will have a blast doing it. Some historical perspective- How many of you remember the $1000 Albino Cal King? A couple of years later, after I got into it of course!, it was literally hard to give them away to a pet store. Couple of years after that there were none to be found because no one made any so all of a sudden they were a $20 wholesale animal again and in demand. They have been $15-$20 ever since. Albino burms, leucistic texas rats, albino corns- all the same story. Anyone notice mouse prices have not gone up significantly in 20+ years? I was buying .10 pinkies 20 years ago and I am buying .10 pinkies today. How does that work?

The moral---Breed it and they will come. You will not make your millions. You will make a few bucks, pay for your addiction and maybe even get a weekend trip to the beach out of the deal every year. Some years you will hit lucky and do better, some years worse. You will get relaxation and enjoyment out of it. You need to decide where you want to be in the food chain and roll with it. It was the same 20 years ago, just fewer of us and there was no internet. Some of you will make careers out of it and the majority will call this a hobby.

As for shows- It is my opinion that there are entirely too many shows in a lot of areas. I like a show, I like attending a show and I even like vending at a show but gee whiz guys. The gentleman from PA is absolutely right. Show promoters are often their own worst enemies. How is it one of the most established shows on the planet (Hamburg, PA) has promoters that want to start up/take over yet another show 45 minutes from Hamburg??? One that failed under another promoter??? 6 or 8 Hamburg shows a year aint enough on top of the other dozen+ shows in a 2 hour radius??? Evolution will slowly eat them up. Like any other business, it will support only so much and no more. Once some weed out it will slowly build up again to the breaking point and we will start over..............

Rish awesome post brother!!!! Golli and I were talking about how many shows there are now the other day.