Wrong Sexed - Opinion Needed

Not to call into question the people who probed the snakes and determined the genders were wrong but...

Probing an animal once when a customer brings it in has a greater element of doubt inherent in it than probing it a few times to be certain of the gender in your own home/facility prior to sale.

It's not difficult to sex snakes correctly, probing is a simple thing to learn... but it's also not difficult to slip occasionally and missex an animal due to simple human observational error on occasion.

What you are asking your sellers to do is trust the word of a third party, months after the sale was concluded (And I'm pretty sure it's safe to assume any guarantees have long since passed, while it would be an issue of misrepresentation IF the animals were missexed and should be corrected, you have already expressed your satisfaction and the guarantees have ended, legal responsibility might be tough to prove).

Rather than approaching the sellers with YOUR solutions and YOUR price estimates, perhaps you should simply contact them and politely ask if they could make the situation right for you. Don't be surprised if they want the animals resexed by additional sources, unnamed retail clerks at a store uninvolved with the transaction might not be taken at face value.

I do agree with Clay though, after the duration of time has passed in this manner and you simply failed to verify things like Gender when the opportunity was there, some of the responsibility for the mistake lies on your shoulders... and ALL the responsibility for the duration of time it took to discover the mistake, it's not really fair for the seller to reimburse you for food and the value increase in growth when the mistake should have been discovered before they became an issue.

If you buy a car and it turns out to have a problem, when you return it, you can't demand a refund for the gas you bought when you kept it... especially if you don't return it until months later. A live animal isn't a car of course, but a certain parallel can be drawn between the situations.

It comes down to a situation of (unintentional) misrepresentation of the animal... the problem is, the misrepresentation is not something it should have taken eight months to determine...

You asked if you should have to take animals sold as healthy to a vet... Maybe not if they aren't showing problems, but wouldn't you at least get a fecal done within a reasonable period of time?

If an animal was sold as being a certain color and when you opened the box it was not... you wouldn't wait eight months to demand a refund, right?

Gender determination is the same way, it's a pretty quick proccess and when you're spending money on animals you hope to use as breeders, it's worth a forty five minute drive if you can't determine it yourself.

First, I also want to thank Clay and Seamus for your's inputs. They gave me a different point of view.

What makes Prehistoric Pets or Reptile Haven, or your local friend professionals and more qualified to probe a snake than you? I think you're selling yourself a bit short here.

The answer is EXPERIENCE. With only a little more than 3 years of keeping boa as a hobby in compare to years that they have been in the market with the amount of snake come in and out everyday, I think they are more qualified to sex a snake.

I also have few questions to ask:
1) What is the common method of sexing neonate ball python? Pop or probe?
2) Is it possible if a neonate ball python was POPPED as a female (by experience people), turned to be a male in adulthood? If it is, how would this matter be handle?
3) In my case to be specific, the seller POPPED the neonate ball pythons in front of me during the transaction. They were looked 1.2 legit. However, after 8 months, they were popped again by two different experience sources, which were also acceptable by the seller, they turned out 2.1. I will meet the seller either today or tomorrow so that he can verify them as well as their sex. If they are indeed 2.1, is it my responsibility since I was there when he POPPED them?

The answer is EXPERIENCE. With only a little more than 3 years of keeping boa as a hobby in compare to years that they have been in the market with the amount of snake come in and out everyday, I think they are more qualified to sex a snake.

Three years is plenty of experience to start learning more advanced techniques, and these experienced people are good choices to learn from.
Whether you pursue the ability or not is up to you though.

1) What is the common method of sexing neonate ball python? Pop or probe?

This depends on who you ask. Some people are very skilled at "popping" and rely on that technique, some can't do it at all and probe instead. Then there are those like myself that pop them first, then probe all the females just to verify it.

2) Is it possible if a neonate ball python was POPPED as a female (by experience people), turned to be a male in adulthood? If it is, how would this matter be handle?

Yes it is. For various reasons a male may not evert a hemipene during popping. He may have a little better muscle control, or the person doing it may not be in exactly the right spot on that particular animal. This is why I only consider it a male if a hemipene is fully everted, and then probe all the females to make sure they are indeed female.
This again falls under human error, it happens. However, it is my opinion that snakes which are determined to be female by popping should be probed to make sure.

If they are indeed 2.1, is it my responsibility since I was there when he POPPED them?

You were really just there as an observer while the breeder did his thing. When you watch someone pop a snake, you may also be watching them fail to do it right, you have no way of knowing when it isn't your hand doing the job.
I know I'm getting repetative, but the females should have been probed after popping. Some people are very skilled at it and rarely make a mistake, but for many people, like myself, popping alone cannot be relied upon in the case of females.

Just to be clear, are you saying I can safely probe very young ball pythons? Ones that are say between 65 and 75 grams?

And to stay on topic~ Boavoyage, looks like we may be neighbors. I have the video "Sexing snakes" by Dr. Seward and a set of probes. I have worked up the nerve to probe some of my larger snakes and so far have accurately identified a "Female" amel corn as a male (So I bred him to one of my females and am incubating eggs by him right now!) I tried "Popping" the 4 small ball pythons I got recently, but they all popped as "Female" and one is SUPPOSED to be a male~ So I think I'm probably just not brave enough to push hard enough to evert a hemipene. (Knowing my luck they are all males!)

Yes you can probe any snake at any size. As to popping ball pythons. It is not even close to the same thing as popping a corn snake. nor do they look the same. It is always best to have someone that knows help until you can learn how to your self.

If I was the one who sold the animals to you. I would ask that you ship them back to me at your cost so I could verify that I had sexed them wrong and If I did I would refund the shipping and replace the said animal. If I had one. Just my thoughts.

Just to be clear, are you saying I can safely probe very young ball pythons? Ones that are say between 65 and 75 grams?

You can probe colubrids that are a fraction of that...

It's just a matter of using the proper probe width and, especially with the smaller/lighter animals, being gentle to ensure that you don't cause any punctures (Not a frequent occurance anyway).

Cheryl, I think you're in So. Cal. too. If you are and you're up for it I'd be happy to show you how to pop and probe in person. My job takes me on the road a lot so I may well be in your neighborhood making stopping by no problem. I've only been doing about 15 years though so I may make a mistake.

Wes Pollock

How are you even sure of the sexes now? Seller told you one thing and now someone else has told you the other. IF (BIG IF) the snakes were sold as guaranteed sex, AND they are the wrong sex, AND you have the receipt, AND can prove these are the same snakes, THEN the seller should work with you on this problem.

However, YOU need to learn how to sex snakes if you are going to be in this business. The seller cannot be held responsible forever, and especially not after you've sold the snakes to someone else. Additionally, sexing, popping, probing, whatever doesn't always work. I have a corn snake at home that I would have bet you $1000 bucks was a male until last year when it laid 22 eggs! So mistakes will happen. But, you (the buyer) should confirm the sex of the animal(s) you buy before you buy them if possible, and if not, as soon as possible after you get them home. Not a year later.

Some sellers sell literally thousands of animals each year, some that many each month or even week, so the seller may not even remember you or the snakes. So the first thing you need to do is contact them and see what they say. If they say they will guarantee the sex, then they'll need to verify that your animals are the ones they sold to you, then THEY ( the original seller) will need to sex them, then yall can discuss what reparations need to be made. Sounds like in this case the sellers will work with you. That's great, but in the future you need to take on the responsibility of learning to sex them yourself.

Crap! Didn't realize there was a second page to this post. So some of my points were already discussed. Oh well, good luck.

How are you even sure of the sexes now? Seller told you one thing and now someone else has told you the other

turned out to be a male after popping (hermipeses showed)

At least one of them he can be pretty sure about...

But speaking in more general terms for anyone reading this who has their animals probed as a gender other than what it was sold as, I agree totally, before approaching the seller over the issue, you should make darn sure that you're positive the animal was (hopefully unintentionally) misrepresented.

IF (BIG IF) the snakes were sold as guaranteed sex, AND they are the wrong sex, AND you have the receipt, AND can prove these are the same snakes, THEN the seller should work with you on this problem

I'm kinda surprised Tim hasn't chimed in with this yet but...

At what point does it stop being the seller's problem?

A question that has been raised over numerous issues in the past, an animal not eating for a period of time well outside the seller's guarantee... health problems developing weeks after it was sent, a whole host of issues where sellers have been pressured to step outside their stated terms and fix an issue. Heck, Davey and Neil with that missexed boa not long ago where Davey discovered the mistake within a fairly short time frame after the sale was made...

But the difference between Davey's situation and John's is the duration of time that had passed... Davey contacted the seller immediately to express a form of dissatisfaction with the size of the animal and the mistake on the issue of gender was discovered shortly after (Less than a week if I'm remembering correctly) so the consensus was that Neil should offer some compromise to correct the situation (Although I think a lot of people took Davey's side even more strongly after Neil claimed that putting 0.1 in an ad wasn't the same as representing it as female)...

In John's case, months had passed before the gender was discovered.

While I certainly think it would be in the best interests of the seller to offer something by way of componsation in order to bring about a mutually acceptable resolution and keep everyone satisfied if not 100% happy...

Gender determination is something that is not that difficult to do (even if it's done by taking a 45 minute car ride) and after a certain point a buyer needs to admit that the problem was increased because of the duration of time spent in reccognizing it and accept partial responsibility for not picking up on it sooner (Which John has done in a very dignified and professional manner I might add)...

So while the mistake was the sellers, it was compounded by a mistake by the buyer (it happens on both sides) and while it would be nice to see a compromise offered... It can't really be demanded.