Wrong Sexed - Opinion Needed

In this I will have to amicably disagree with some of the opinions. If we are suggesting that the buyer should know how to sex (which I happen to agree with if he is planning on breeding in the future), then it stands reason that the seller, an established business should guarantee the sex regardless of the elapsed time. This is obviously taking into consideration that the snake can be identified properly as being the one he shipped. Let us suppose that I buy a 20K female piebald (that was priced 5K more than the males; bear with me I'm being extremist here)from "Big Breeder XXX" as I have a similarly valued animal at home (I wish!). After raising them for 3 years it turns out they are two males, and that I can't afford to buy an adult female. What do I do now?

Alvaro,

20K or $20, you should sex that animal when it arrives! I don't think it's fair to hold the seller accountable for a trait, you, the buyer, can't even determine yourself.

Seamus,

How are we sure that John knows what a hemipene looks like? I know I knew how to probe before I ever learned to "pop," so maybe he's seeing something else. Extreme argument I know, but I know mistakes can be made easily when sexing an animal, so if the sex of the animal is that important I check it right away. Think about it, you're the breeder, you sold 1234 animals last year. 434 of those were ball pythons. Low and behold one day someone calls you up and says, "Hey, remember that female ball you sold me? Well the guys up at the petstore by me, say it's a boy. So, I think you should bend over and take it up the ........" That's the impression I got when reading some of John senarios for what should happen.

I think the first thing that should happen is John should learn how to sex the animals he eventually hopes to breed. Either that or stick to parthenogenic lizards (all females, don't need males to reproduce). Not trying to be rough on John, but 8 months is way to long to let something like this go. I know I can't even remember which shows I did last September much less which snakes I sold to whom, and what sexes they were supposed to be.

How are we sure that John knows what a hemipene looks like?

An extreme argument to be certain and... I doubt applicable in this instance, but certainly worth mentioning as the thread and discussion involves not just the specifics of John's case but could be applied to similar situations encompassing different parties.

I do firmly feel that the seller SHOULD make an attempt to make this right, either through some financial reparations for the price differences or by exchanging the animals for those of the correct genders...

But I also don't see them as being obligated to do so because of the duration of time between the sale and the discovery of the mistake.

So... a class act good guy would do something about it, but not fixing it doesn't automatically mean the seller is bad.

Make any sense?

Thanks again everyone, for your inputs. It proves that this site is very helpful in getting information and learning. I really mean it, no scarcastic (sp?) here.

I think the first thing that should happen is John should learn how to sex the animals he eventually hopes to breed. Either that or stick to parthenogenic lizards (all females, don't need males to reproduce). Not trying to be rough on John, but 8 months is way to long to let something like this go. I know I can't even remember which shows I did last September much less which snakes I sold to whom, and what sexes they were supposed to be.

One thing I learn from this post as well as Greg Riso's post regarding the Hypo het Anery is that I will never buy from Brian Conley. I'm sorry Brian, it's not personal, but from your point of view, you are not a RESPONSIBLE seller. Once the animal leaves your hand, unless the buyer find there's a problem RIGHT AWAY, you don't take any responsible for it at all. Also, you just said that you don't keep good record of your animals, too.

Let me give you some example of responsible sellers.

For my ball pythons, they were sexed by two different people here in Southern California. Although I don't know how to sex snake, and it doesn't mean I will never know to sex snake, I can tell if there's something stick out from my snake butt (called it hermipeses, winkies, or whatever you want to call it). Also both people told me that it's a male. I emailed my seller and didn't plan to press charge or post him as a bad guy (and that's the reason I posted here in General Discussion because I just want to learn from other's opinion and share my opinion so that someone can correct me if I am wrong so I can learn from it also). AND THIS IS WHAT YOU NEED TO LEARN IF YOU PLAN TO SELL SOME SNAKE BRIAN:
The seller called me back. After I let him know who were the ones sexed the python (he knows and trusts both of them), we arranged to meet on Tuesday so that he can verified if they were his snakes and if he missexed them. We met on Tuesday night as scheduled. He checked them out, and found out the one supposed to be a female had "tiny winkies" (his words). Then he took pictures of them for his record so that he can compared with his pictures. Then he told me that he will give me another 02 female, and I can keep the male, since he made the mistake, and he wants to compensated me for all the inconvenience. We were scheduled to meet on Thursday night (since I want him to have time to verify the pictures). We made last night, and he gave me another 2002 female het ball python. She was a little smaller than 800 grams, but she was a gogeous ball python. On top of that, she ate a fuzzy rat when I gave to her last night at 10:00 p.m.
I don't know if you will learn anything from it, but to me, a good practice to be a seller is you need to back-up your animal. Health, feeding are thing out of your hand. However, genetic and sex can't be changed by time. And you also need to keep good record of animal you sold, since it will protect your end. You can't just said it's not my animal without showing proof that it's not your animal (don't tell me that it's also the BUYER'S responsible to prove that the animal is your.)

In regard of the Peruvian, although either the seller or I figure out how to handle the situation (which I prefer to hear from the seller's opinion first), the seller and I have been keeping contact. He has given suggestion and offer assistance helping me to sell the snake, and ensure me he will make it right in some way. Even IF we can't reach a way to resolve this matter, he is not a bad guy, and I am still happy and appreciate that he responsed to the matter, show that he's a trustworthy seller/breeder that I will not be hesistate to buy from. It is much better that if he just tell me, "Tough luck. I can't even remember which shows I did last September much less which snakes I sold to whom, and what sexes they were supposed to be

Again, thanks alot everyone, and sorry for the long post. I just want to notify how my situation was resolved and posted my point of view.

OK, I might be wrong, but regardless of the time elapsed, I still think that if one is in the business of selling reptiles the seller needs to know how to sex a snake. The fact is he should guarantee the sex for as long as he is able to recognize the buyer and the snake in question. Health and other guarantees may expire, but I do not put sex into this category. John bought a certain sex and that is what he should have received.

Regards.

I don't think it's fair to hold the seller accountable for a trait, you, the buyer, can't even determine yourself

Since you love to use car as an example, here is my question: Do you need to be a mechanic in order to buy a car? Because, my company assigned me a truck. I drove only 72 miles and the "Check Engine Light" was on and I don't know what's going on. Tell me what should I do, because my company's mechanic asked me to take it back to the dealer...

Few, if any, of the people on this thread are disputing the fact the seller has a responsibility in this situation. What is being brought into question is the degree of responsibility the seller bears as time passes.
If a snake is purchased as a female, and raised for two years before it is discovered that it's a male, the seller can't be expected to locate a 2 year old female to fix the error. The delay to the buyers breeding program is his own fault for not sexing the animal sooner. Had the sex been determined a month after purchase, a replacement hatchling would have been fine, so you can't penalize the seller for the delay in which he had no control over.
Likewise such things as food and cost of care during that period are not the fault of the seller and he can't be expected to bear that burden.

Basically if someone plops down 10 grand for a piebad ball and fails to sex it for two years, I feel, if anything, the seller owes him a hatchling, or a refund of the purchase price, or a refund of the difference in purchase price if there is any and the buyer keeps the animal. The value of the animal is not pro rated due to its age when the mistake was discovered. The delay to his breeding efforts is his share of the responsibility for the time that has elapsed.

Mistakes happen. It's not a matter of the seller not knowing how to sex a snake, everyone makes these mistakes at some point.
The way I see it, as a snake breeder, I'm willing to help a buyer all I can and go to lengths to correct any errors I may make. I cannot however, be expected to hold the buyers hand for the lifetime of the snake. Neither should I be expected to keep pictures of every snake I hatch along with all the details of the sale for years to come. Perhaps this may be warranted in the case of hets worth thousands of dollars, but not for the average snake. At some point he must begin taking responsibility for his actions.

Basically if someone plops down 10 grand for a piebad ball and fails to sex it for two years, I feel, if anything, the seller owes him a hatchling, or a refund of the purchase price, or a refund of the difference in purchase price if there is any and the buyer keeps the animal.

I like Clay's proposal. It seems to contemplate both sides.

Regards.

If a snake is purchased as a female, and raised for two years before it is discovered that it's a male, the seller can't be expected to locate a 2 year old female to fix the error. The delay to the buyers breeding program is his own fault for not sexing the animal sooner. Had the sex been determined a month after purchase, a replacement hatchling would have been fine, so you can't penalize the seller for the delay in which he had no control over.

Likewise such things as food and cost of care during that period are not the fault of the seller and he can't be expected to bear that burden.

Basically if someone plops down 10 grand for a piebad ball and fails to sex it for two years, I feel, if anything, the seller owes him a hatchling, or a refund of the purchase price, or a refund of the difference in purchase price if there is any and the buyer keeps the animal. The value of the animal is not pro rated due to its age when the mistake was discovered. The delay to his breeding efforts is his share of the responsibility for the time that has elapsed.

I am totally agree with Clay's point of view. Both of buyer and seller have some responsible at some point.
My example of taking pictures for record is plainly an example.
Best regards.

John, I sold approximately 450-500 animals last weekend at the Raleigh show. So according to your logic, I should recognize every single one of them 8 months from now?!?!? John, you're taking my style of arguement much to personally. I'm not saying you should go take a long walk, off a short pier, but you should know how to sex snakes before you start buying expensive ones, and trying to breed them, right?

I think even you would agree that a horse breeder should be able to tell the difference between a male horse and a female one, right? So why do you get a pass on knowing how to sex snakes? It takes 10 minutes to learn (if that long). Boas are easy, ball pythons are difficult. So everyone makes mistake on them, that's why you (the buyer) should verify asap. Especially if you're spending the kind of money you're talking about.

If you were sold a guaranteed female ball by this guy and he recognizes the snake and is willing to fix his mistake great! But, to use your car analogy, if you pull up to the dealer, 8 years from now, with no registration for the truck, and all the VIN numbers rubbed off, do you really think they are gonna fix it for free?

As for you not buying from me, oh well. All I've tried to do here is play the devil's advocate to help people see ALL sides of the issues presented. If you look back at the Greg Riso post, you'll notice that in the end he agreed with me about trusting people you don't know. By the way, come see me at the Daytona show and I'll be happy to teach you how to probe a snake. I'll be in the west lobby right by one of the doors (north I think).