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Genetics, Taxonomy, Hybridization General discussions about the science of genetics as well as the ever changing face of taxonomy. Issues concerning hybridization are welcome here as well.

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Old 10-21-2006, 10:15 PM   #1
crotalusadamanteus
Hybridization for Morph creation

Was just wondering peoples takes on this. Other peoples views, and ideas on the subject of introducing genetic mutations into some of the locality specific boas. I mean, people all ready are doing it, and have been for some time. And I do not mean crossing the ssp barier like an (Argy x Colombian) Albino called Bubblegum for example, but staying within the BCI ssp. Example would be the Sunsets.

And another thing too. When people try to cross these locality boas, and you see things like 75% Colombian and 25% Hogg it would appear that they are trying to introduce the hogg into the Colombian line. How about the other way around? Say introduce the Colombian mutation into the Hogg line? Realistically you will never get it back to pure Hogg again, but neither is the Salmon Hypo pure colombian, but its a well accepted addition to several Colombian morphs.

Anyway, I really don't want to start a war or debate of ethics here. I understand very well some concider this a touchy subject. I happen to be supportive of keeping the localities just as they are. But I am also open minded or curious enough to wonder......What would one of them Hondurans look like as an albino? Or one of those Red Hypo Nicaraguans as an albino or Sunglow, or Ghost?

Oppinions of both kinds welcome. Share what you think.
Rick
 
Old 10-22-2006, 12:26 AM   #2
Mokele
I don't really see any *genetic* reason preventing the hybridization aspect of such a project. I do, however, see the practical difficulty of establishing breeding lines without extensive inbreeding. I'm rather skeptical of the genetic health of non-wild-type snakes anyway (due to inbreeding for lines and the genetic bottleneck around the first individual to manifest the trait), and in the process of establishing these traits in different localities, you'll be setting up yet another genetic bottleneck and further reducing the genetic diversity present.

Of course, there are ways to minimize the problems, but it's an issue of scale: the sheer number of animals needed and breeding to be done to minimize genetic trouble would probably be financially unfeasible, and smaller scale operations could produce the right effects, but only with some loss of genetic health.

Henry
 
Old 10-22-2006, 01:32 AM   #3
The BoidSmith
Quote:
And another thing too. When people try to cross these locality boas, and you see things like 75% Colombian and 25% Hogg it would appear that they are trying to introduce the hogg into the Colombian line.
Rick,

Maybe I'm wrong but when I see 75% Colombian, 25% Hogg I think the other way around. They started breeding a Hogg with a Colombian (50:50) and now they are trying to go back breeding the F1 to a Colombian again thus getting the 75%.

Regards.
 
Old 10-22-2006, 06:57 AM   #4
crotalusadamanteus
Quote:
Originally Posted by The BoidSmith
Rick,

Maybe I'm wrong but when I see 75% Colombian, 25% Hogg I think the other way around. They started breeding a Hogg with a Colombian (50:50) and now they are trying to go back breeding the F1 to a Colombian again thus getting the 75%.

Regards.
LOL sounds like you are saying the same thing I was trying for. Introducing the hogg blood to a Colombian line.
How about the other way. Say for example, trying to intro the albino gene into a Hogg BCI, than back to hoggs to try and get the Colombian out, but keeping the albino grene in? Anyone tried or talked about that before?

Henry,
I understand completely about the genetic diversity, or lack of with creating morphs. I think the albino gene has a somewhat bad rap due to this IMO. But how about the isolated localities? How is it that in the wild they seem to be so healthy, when they are forced through isolation to inbreed with Mom, Dad, Brother and Sister? I find it hard to beleive that these Boas being isolated on islands like the Cochinos, Roatán, St. Lucia, Taboga and other pearl islands, manage to find new unrelated breeding partners. I mean, what keeps that genetic diversity going? Those all seem like perfectly healthy boas. You don't see them coming out with eye problems, or 2 heads or anything. They seem geneticaly healthy to me. Those Sabogae are pretty stunning, and you could likely throw a rock from one side of that island to the other. LOL

I've had questions like these for some time.


Rick
 
Old 10-22-2006, 09:16 AM   #5
The BoidSmith
Quote:
How about the other way. Say for example, trying to intro the albino gene into a Hogg BCI, than back to hoggs to try and get the Colombian out, but keeping the albino grene in?
The problem is that since there are no "pure" albino Hoggs that we know of every time you introduce a Hogg to the pool you are proportionally decreasing the odds of getting an albino in the litter. Let us suppose you breed an albino Colombian to a normal Hogg. Your get 100% heteros, right? When you breed the F1 to a normal Hogg to go back to 75% Hogg blood you have diluted your chances of getting albino offspring.

Regards.
 
Old 10-22-2006, 10:18 AM   #6
crotalusadamanteus
Correct, you'll have an F2 litter of poss hets 75% Hogg. It takes only one of those 75% F2's to prove back to the 50% F1 het for the first (hopefully) albino 62.5% Hogg. That one albino crossed back to a different unrelated pure Hogg will yeild hetero's more in the 80% Hogg range. Etc., etc., etc. In theory of course. LOL It will never be a pure Hogg albino, and any who think you can out breed the Colombian completely is not the brightest crayon in the box.

This would take years to do of course. But imagine.........we already breed for selective traits like Coral, lipstick, RG, pastel, etc., etc..........(remember to imagine ) take the melanin away from one of those blood boas, or a really red Nic, or a dark Honduran. After all, when trying to make a certain morph, seems purity went out the window long ago.

Starting to look like this aint gonna be a popular subject. HA HA Perhaps I just have an over active imagination, or boredom got the better of me.

Interesting input so far. Where's the other side? I know there are plenty who don't really care about purity. LOL

Rick
 
Old 10-22-2006, 11:17 AM   #7
Mokele
Quote:
But how about the isolated localities? How is it that in the wild they seem to be so healthy, when they are forced through isolation to inbreed with Mom, Dad, Brother and Sister? I find it hard to beleive that these Boas being isolated on islands like the Cochinos, Roatán, St. Lucia, Taboga and other pearl islands, manage to find new unrelated breeding partners. I mean, what keeps that genetic diversity going? Those all seem like perfectly healthy boas. You don't see them coming out with eye problems, or 2 heads or anything. They seem geneticaly healthy to me.
Well, as you no doubt know, snakes can exist in some surprisingly high population densities, especially in the tropics, due to their low food requirements. Even in most localities, there's more than adequate population to exist without significant inbreeding.

However, numerous papers on island populations of animals show that they are inbred relative to mainland populations for precisely the reason you describe, and there is evidence that this is actually one reason island species are so prone to extinction compared to mainland counterparts (along with other factors such as restricted range and small population size). Chances are that if you introduced a breeding population of columbian or suriname boas onto those islands, they'd replace the native locality pretty quickly (though, of course, these new colonists would wind up with the same problem after a while).

This also brings up the point about birth defects; just because there isn't a cyclops or eyeless snake in every litter doesn't mean there's not inbreeding depression. Inbreeding depression often manifests itself in life history traits such as lifespan, fecunidity, infant survival to a greater degree than in morphology (size, pattern, etc) (DeRose & Roff, Evolution, 1999). Birth defects tend to show up more commonly, yes, but in evolutionary terms, a reduction in lifetime reproductive output by 20% (simply due to less eggs/neonates and shorter life) is much more damaging to fitness than having a 10% rate of nonviable hatchlings due to birth defects.

The point is that they *seem* like healthy animals, but they may have significant disadvantages in competing with their mainland kin, for reasons that aren't nearly as striking as birth defects and are often subtle and difficult to notice (slightly reduced lifespan, smaller litters, slightly impaired immune system, etc).

Henry
 
Old 10-22-2006, 12:42 PM   #8
The BoidSmith
Not to mention the increased susceptibility of albinos to eye anomalies as has been extensively documented in humans.
 
Old 01-11-2009, 03:10 AM   #9
Kaiyudsai
Quote:
Originally Posted by The BoidSmith View Post
The problem is that since there are no "pure" albino Hoggs that we know of every time you introduce a Hogg to the pool you are proportionally decreasing the odds of getting an albino in the litter. Let us suppose you breed an albino Colombian to a normal Hogg. Your get 100% heteros, right? When you breed the F1 to a normal Hogg to go back to 75% Hogg blood you have diluted your chances of getting albino offspring.

Regards.
THey've been trying this with Surinam and Guyana bcc's recently to produce "better" albinos... then trying to slide this recessive trait into a bcc bloodline... Genes just don't work this way.... THe problem is the alleles for a certain trait , say albinism, may be located on different genes for different subspecies, and more so with different species..... ALthough there is a possibility that everything may line up, it seems way too random to use this method for selective breeding .....
 

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