Advice on who's good and who's not at the Tampa show.

Agreed! I'm not saying anything bad about any vendors anywhere! The mali we purchased was in pristine external condition, it simply had not been treated and had been sold to us saying that it had!!! There's no way to know, and that was my point!!! If the vendor had been honest about it we would have treated it ourselves!!! It was just a shining example of my point, whether you buy reptiles online, pet shops, or at shows, that there are people out there who will not be honest with you to turn a buck. Isn't that why the BOI is here in the first place, to sort such persons out ??? I mean no offense to anyone whatsoever, just trying to lay down some common sense to the original inquiry about the vendors at the Tampa show. It's better to know what and most importantly who you're dealing with in the business. Not knowing may plainly and simply cost you money and heartache in the long run. My post was simply a call to be careful, know what you're getting and who you're getting it from, nothing more. This isn't meant as anything other than a warning, and I don't care where the show is, just be selective in your purchases!

Oh, so they told you it was treated! That's BS! I'd post them here. People ask me that all the time, and I always wondered why anyone would think a $10 ball or $25 mali was "treated." It costs more to treat them than the animal costs. Yeah, lying show vendors should get the same treatment online lyers get. Folks if you're paying low prices for imports, THEY HAVE NOT BEEN TREATED! When someone tells you otherwise, quiz them. Ask them with what, for what, dosages, etc. That story would breakdown real quick.

Alas, this was before I began using the BOI and I've since lost the vendor's business card so I can't point out the sack of dung that sold it to me, and I was just trying to spread a little common sense to ask questions and throughly inspect any animals that anyone purchases to the original poster. I meant no offense to anyone, like I said, save the guy who misrepresented the mali we purchased. -Eric Lago

however, honesty has nothing to do with selling reptiles. At least not to diehards like myself. I would prefer to see a sign on a table that says, sold as is, no guarantee, . My experience has shown me that its guaranteed that a percentage of the reptiles will die anyway. I look at it as a " get it while you can attitude " and if its a good price , then thats even better.

The obligation of the vendor is to the money, not the reptile. Unless you can afford to loose business because of your honesty, it does not pay for a vendor to cut his own throat with guarantees, information that may or may not be true, whether its captive bred or wild caught. Even under the of circumstances, and being an honest abe, the animal can die, and the reason is inconsequental, the buyer is out the money and the animal. Your honesty now relies on a refund or a replacement. JERRY TRESSER

On Uromastyx we've found it better not to just shotgun treat imports. It's better to only treat those that test positive with a high level of parasite infection. I've talked to a number of Uro "specialists" and they have the same belief. Just an opinion.

The obligation of the vendor is to the money, not the reptile. Unless you can afford to loose business because of your honesty, it does not pay for a vendor to cut his own throat with guarantees, information that may or may not be true, whether its captive bred or wild caught. Even under the of circumstances, and being an honest abe, the animal can die, and the reason is inconsequental, the buyer is out the money and the animal. Your honesty now relies on a refund or a replacement.

While I usually agree with a lot of Jerry's posts about business I'm going to disagree with this one. I feel that providing as much education to the customer about the animals they are purchasing (how to take care of it as well as if it's import/cb etc) is part of doing good business and pays off in the long run in repeat business. This education increases the chances of the purchase being a success and the customer being happy in the long run with their experience. With the large number of new people coming into the hobby making sure that they are successful in keeping their reptile (or at the very least that they are satisfied with the purchase and customer service) builds a repeat customer base. If your customers are just reading your sign posted on the front of the cage and moving on you should look at how your doing shows (generic "your" not targeted towards anyone). If they think every WC at the show is the same then they will ONLY buy on price, give them a reason to buy from you other than price.

why anyone would think a $10 ball or $25 mali was "treated." It costs more to treat them than the animal costs

Don't know where you get your numbers but I can get enough Panacur to treat 2500 lbs for about $8.00 and 50 grams of Flagyl for $16.00 so that would equal mere pennies per animal.

Brian,

First off you are wrong with your statement

Originally posted by bpc
Folks if you're paying low prices for imports, THEY HAVE NOT BEEN TREATED!

EVERY animal that is an import that comes into our place IS treated at least once with Pancur. Most receive multiple treatments to help rid them of possible internal parasites. You can't sit there and say that everyone that says the animals have been treated are lying. Treating animals is not expensive to everyone. Luckily I have been treating animals for many years and have a great success with treating them the way we do. It usually only cost less than 20 cents each for the meds to treat each animal and the only other thing is my time in doing so. You obviously don't know the cost of the meds and are probably referring to a Vet's visit and such. There are alot of Vet's that will only charge for the fecal that is performed and not for an entire office visit all you have to do is talk to your Vet and see what they can do for you.
I am unlike most importers who will tell you "most imports are wormed before shipment" when in fact they have never treated an animal in their life. Now we don't guarantee the animals are parasite free but we give them a good start. We always suggest that an import animal is taking to a Vet and given a fecal to ensure if the animals is clear of parasites and if not they need to be treated again. I would suggest that anyone that purchases an import animal (from anyone) have a fecal performed by a vet to ensure they are free.

I'm curious as to whether all the fresh WC animals at the Tampa show keep a lot of the larger breeders away. If you bred high end captive born animals how would you guys feel about setting up your table inches from a tank of untreated WC herps that had just arrived in the country the day before? I know that CB animals can harbor illnesses as well but obviously there is a huge risk exposing your animals to tanks full of freshly imported ball pythons, boas and half dead uromastyxs.

Jerry, I'm hoping I misunderstood your last post or you were just using sarcasm to make a point. That is really unfortunate if those are your true feelings.

business is being a good businessman. I am certainly not suggesting that you lie to your customer if they ask a question, but the scenereo that Ive seen to often with vendors who will answer a question to insure a sale is to often the main course for getting the sale. For the neophyte who probably has no business even buying herps. Is the lizard cb, sure is!, had it for a year, sure , its a long term w.c. but in great condition as you can see!, these animals have all been inspected and are in great health! we dont sell w.c. on and on! As you can see, it would best serve the vendor not to entertain these methods, to consummate a sale, but this is the rule and not the exception. So when someone makes a purchase and the animal dies within 3 days,one really begins to wonder. I am by no means taking shots at the vendor , what I am saying is that if he changed his method of operation when dealing with the public, it would serve the market better when dealing with the public. Let them know, if they ask, but relate everything to the terms of the business and not the animal. Thats their obligation. I would have very strong reservations selling a knobtail gecko to a kid. Even if he had the money! I dont want you to think that I am relating this converstation to vendors specifically, but generally their are a group of " low quality vendors" who will provide a " yes " to every question asked. In the end, the poor soul who makes a purchase is faced with a contradiction once the animal dies. When brought to the attention of a different vendor, he will say, you should have come to me first. and so the merry go round. JERRY TRESSER

Rob, "treated" and treated properly are 2 different things. Yes, flagyl and panacur are cheap and relatively easy to get. Albon, baytril, and some of the other stuff is not. I believe shotgunning as often as not, does more harm than good. Shotgunning can lead to antibiotic resistant organism's which could spred throughout the industry.

PROPERLY treated animals should MINIMALLY be stool checked and then only treated for the pathogenic organisms present. I do understand what should be done, I am a Biology teacher. $5 ball python + $7 stool check + gas and time to get it done + meds (hopefully the cheap ones) + needles, syringes, tubes, catheters, scales + more time to do the treatments + more time to feed, cage, and clean up after the animals while waiting to finish all the treatments needed to call the animal TREATED (full course for panacur is what, once every 2 weeks for a total of 4 treatments), adds up to way more than $10 for a ball python.

Rob, you may very well "treat" your animals, but one shot of panacur is not a "treated" ball python. As you said, it's a start. If that "treatment" is not continued, all that will happen is that some of those organisms will die (the weak ones) and the rest will have a field-day because there is now less competition. Your "good start" could lead to resistant organisms which could wipe out entire collections. It's the same reason you're supposed to take ALL the bills the doctor prescribes, and not just take them until you feel better. Those animals that finish thier "treatments" could then be called successfully treated only after they have passed a second or maybe a third fecal, weeks or even months down the road. And they could only be called treated for the pathogens which are succeptable to panacur or whatever drug you are using. Additionally, if all you're doing is fecals, then you are not treating for blood-born or respiratory pathogens, unless said pathogens have a life stage which includes the digestive tract.

Rob, you don't sell the animals I'm talking about. You sell animals only after they have been in and passed you tests. That is why your animals cost a little more than the animals I am talking about. You have more in them. But even so, I would not call one or two shots of cattle wormer "treated." If you are saying it costs less than 20 cents to treat an animal then you are not using a new sterile tube after each treatment. And if you're not then each time you stuff that tube down another aniamls throat you run the risk of infecting said animal with another pathogen.