Tentative list of membership options.

Originally Posted by Suncoast Herpetological

I supppport this change 100%

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I second that !!!!!![/SIZE]

OK, here's the deal. If my paid membership plan fails and I finally come to that conclusion, what I will do is to close down all of the membership plans and stop accepting any advertising that will extend past 1 year from the date I decide that the plan has busted and the site has flushed down the toilet.

And I will post a notice to that effect on this site with an apology, so there will be no mistake about what has transpired.

Along with that apology, I will post my cell phone number for anyone who cares to call me and tell me "I told you so!" while I am laying on the beach enjoying all of my newly found free time.

Is that fair enough?

Rich,

No that is not fair enough! We are not looking to tell you “I told you so…” so after the fact; rather we are hopeful it will not come to your giving up the ship and then being stranded on a desert island with lots of beaches - so we are giving you other ideas now. What would be fair enough would be for you to realize that even those who oppose some or all of the proposed changes may be, and probably are, supporters of you and your site. I think Tom (hope I got that right) was right when he said it appears as if you are getting pissed off at people who have markedly different opinions on this issue – so why did you open it up for discussion if all you wanted were opinions in agreement? You are going down a road that most other web sites akin to yours do not travel in that you will be charging membership fee. If you do not expect to get both plenty of praise and plenty of flack over that, well you don’t understand your current membership or human nature. I do understand though that you don’t need a lot of private messages or emails about this – I would think everything should be posted here in this thread for all to see, and I believe that other site users should respect you enough to do that, and they should respect the full membership enough to share their thoughts with all of us.

You getting upset or mad, apparently has spread to others and evidently results in disrespectful posts being made. For example:

“I think that there are more people willing to pay for this website than you might think, Webslave. It's always the babies that cry the loudest.”

You opened this to discussion and for anyone to say the above was, in my opinion, not called for. There is no going back on what was said by then saying:

“????? I think you should read the post again, along with the prior post I made, Tom. I was referring the people that are crying about having to pay for the use of this website as "babies"... kind of like the picture of the one that Rich posted.”

I have read all of the previous posts in this thread. I say again, that comment was not called for. People who disagree with the fee to use this website are not babies nor are they crying. They are expressing an opinion other than one that believes a fee should be charged. I do not see that as crying, I see that as disagreement. I do see it as disrespectful for someone to say others are being babies because they expressed a disagreeing opinion in regard to charging fees. People who disagree probably are people who do not believe they should have to pay for what is, in essence, the same service, they receive elsewhere for free. I have heard no crying. I have read people discussing the issues. Let's continue to discuss them nicely.

Rich, you bring up the fact that you will not make money off of charging $10 for the full use of the BOI, yet making money is exactly the reason you keep giving for wanting to charge a fee. Yes I know you gave other reasons too, like preventing double registrations and so forth but; ten dollars will not do much to prevent that will it? So if it will not prevent that or do little to really aid prevention and, if you will not make money off of the fee for ‘full use’ of the BOI – well why then are you being so stubborn by saying that you NEED to charge for full use of the BOI? I really do not understand that at all! I do of course understand a need to make money to compensate yourself for your expenses, and for your time past, present and future. I have had no problem with that ever. That is why I continuously have made donations to you for your site, and why I have continued to do so even as recently as last week or the week before. I have come to the conclusion, because of what you have said, that those donations you receive may not be enough to sustain the site should some of them fall off. I agree with this even though you admitted that you are at the break even stage for current expenses because of donations. I understand wanting to make some money off of this site. I understand wanting to actually make a profit. I understand your wanting to prevent abuse at the BOI, but not how you want to do it. I understand all of that other stuff too. What I really do not understand is how you can look at a great incentive such as the FREE BOI and want to risk reducing its effectiveness. It is the incentive that brings people to and keeps them at this site. I do not unerstand how you can say you are willing to decrease its ability to draw people to your site by charging a fee for it. By decreasing its appeal in anyway, you take the risk of losing members. Since it is the NUMBER ONE DRAW for this site (in its current form), well then you are taking the NUMBER ONE RISK of losing the most members by making the BOI any less appealing than it already is.

You yourself wrote that you expect around 500 paying members. So I wonder, are 500 members the total amount of the membership who have ever posted on the BOI? If you have 750 members posting there now, and you expect only 500 to pay well that decreases the effectiveness of the BOI by a loss of at lkeast 250 members and therefore will have repercussions down the road that will effect your whole site SINCE THE BOI IS YOUR BIGGEST DRAW. Do you see what I am getting at? (I am hopeful no one will refer to it as crying but rather as a real attempt to discuss the issues in a mature manner.) Even if the number of BOI users is less than 500 right now, and even if you still get 500 paying members, you probably will still lose a good percentage of the BOI users. You simply cannot count on the BOI users all paying a fee, or maybe not even on most of them paying a fee. The smaller the BOI usage base gets, the more it looks like a clique, the more it looks like a clique, the less effective it will be, the less effective it will be, the less it will be used, the less it will be used, the fewer people who come to use this site. This will bite you in the behind, and will bring the site down if it happens. Of course this is all hypothetical right now, but worth considering very seriously if you triuly want the site to prosper.

I think you would have more people like myself, who would be willing to donate or to pay for use of the remainder of your site if the BOI remained totally free for full usage. They may not like paying for the rest of the site but, I think they would be more willing to pay, to keep it running, if the BOI remained unemcumbered by a fee system. Under such a plan, those who would still choose the freebie option for the rest of your site – those who would simply register to make posts in regular forums and in a free full use BOI (I hope I remembered that right) would still be drawn here because of the BOI and, its remaining free. You would not lose people because of a fee for use BOI - but you likely will if you do charge a fee to post in the BOI. Since the BOI is the main attraction, think of how many people you will lose at the whole site if you charge for posting at the BOI. Then think of how that translates to money making for your advertisers. If your site is losing members because the effectiveness of it main draw has decreased, your advertisers will be losing potential clients. If they lose potential clients there will be less reason for them to advertise here (whether that be advertising fees charged per ad or an advertisers yearly membership fees or both). If they advertise here less, that will be less income for you. Will 500 paying members spread out across all the payment options you have, and fewer advertising dollars, equal what you get now in donations, plus advertising fees? If that happens, and the risk is greatest when you mess with the main attraction, well then what of the money making?

I am not being critical here, I am being investigative. I wonder – have you really done the math on this or are you just gambling. Are you willing to gamble away this site and have all your time and effort wind up in some time on the beach? I have heard a lot of guess work, but have not seen it supported by much in the way of financial projections and such. If you have not already done that, maybe you should. If you have done it, why not share it with the membership? Again this is not criticism but rather and effort to make you look very closely at what you are about to do, because I do want to see you succeed. I think no one in the membership wants to see you fail with faunaclassifieds.

Again, not to resurrect or beat a dead horse, but to let you know my steed has not even fallen – I would suggest allowing the BOI to remain free. Then if you absolutely must charge a fee, charge one only for other areas of faunaclassifieds. Make sure, also, to charge enough to hire paid help. To want to repay yourself for all your time and effort is great, but you should also make sure to repay those others who have helped you for their time and effort too – even if they are willing to do it for free. If you deserve to be paid then so too do they. By hiring paid help, you can take more time and effort for things like relaxation and recreation.

Consider this too: For you to want to cut back your main drawing factor (the BOI) by making it less appealing makes it sound as if you have a subconscious death wish for the site, and maybe you want to just hang out at the beach for real. Have you taken a vacation lately? Maybe you need one. Go the beach, stay there for about two weeks, do nothing else but hang out on the beach. When you get back home the beach may not look so appealing and, the free BOI may not look so bad after all.

Best regards,
Glenn B

Rich,

To address one of my own points/musings: I guess I am being stubborn too; so I guess I understand why each of us is being so, now that I think of that one point a bit more. We just both want to see the site do its best.... I am hopeful you understand that about all who have contributed their remarks in this thread.

All the best,
Glenn B

Well in my opinion i think it should be more! $10.00....PLEASE!!!! give me a break! If someone can't...no if someone won't pay ten dollars, why would he be breeding or even keeping reptiles? He/she should have no buisness doing so!
This will be a great way to weed out the dead beats!

Your argument that someone who is not willing to pay a fee to this site has little or nothing to do with whether or not they shouldkeep or breed reptiles. I know many people who both keep and breed reptiles and who do not even use this site for free. Since when has use of this site, or payment or support of it, suddenly become a requirement to being allowed to keep and breed reptiles? I am sorry but an argument like that probably makes this site look even less appealing than it had before. I am hopeful that others are not of the opinion that if you do not support this site, you have no right or privelage to be keping and breeding reptiles, amphibians or, any of the other animals discussed within the faunaclassified forums.

As for weeding out deadbeats, from where are you weeding them out, just out of the BOI. Again the clique mentality is taking over, or so it seems. Hey only those of us who pay are good enough to comment about one another. Come now, that is a bit off the mark of the intended purpose of the BOI.

Out of regard for principles I may not remain as an active contributing member of the BOI (contributing posts that is) if a fee is charged for its use. I am somewhat of the belief that such only tends to lend to a loss of validity for the BOI, more so than do the silly, or nasty, or double registered self praising things that some people post there now. To have to pay, in order to speak my words or in order to write them for all to see when I am contributing my efforts, that in essence promote the biggest drawing forum on this site, seems to me as if it would be rather preposterous. So I remain uncertain as to whether or ot I would pay to use the BOI. I simply am not sure if I would pay an actual dues or fee to Rich for this site. I wonder, does that in your opinion make me a dead beat? Does it, in your opinion, make me cheap? Your posts as do those of others, in my opinion, just go on and on in attempts to belittle others who have opinions that disagree with your own. Too bad you would rather not discuss the issue nucely insteasd of being insulting even if only, as I believe you words were so, by implication!

Give you a break you said, no sir you get no breaks from me; not with a reply like yours.

Sincerely with best regards,
Glenn B

Well in my opinion i think it should be more! $10.00....PLEASE!!!! give me a break!

I've been thinking of this philosophically...

I go to the store, and I will see something I want that is $9.99 that I don't NEED but hey, it's cool, I have the money just then, so I buy it. Case in point, last summer I saw a cool little mechanical fish I could put batteries in and it would swim around our swimming pool like a real fish. SO cool! So I bought it... yet I might be looking at olives (and I LOVE olives) and I won't buy that can of olives if it's $1.29 instead of on sale for $0.99. Sometimes we are not logical about the things we spend money on. Before I ever paid for anything on this site I felt that the fee would be onerous... NOT because I couldn't come up with $10.00, because obviously, if I can buy a useless fish that swims in the swimming pool, I could... but because it chafes a bit to pay for something that I'm used to as being free. Especially when some months we DO have to lift seat cushions and count out pennies (literally) so we can give our daughter her lunch money.

What I did find though, was that after I donated $25 to this site I haven't regretted the expenditure. I'm not buying a "good reputation".... but I feel that I have a vested interest in the site, and in its doing well. I have taken a certain pride of "ownership" in the site. It's not MY site, but I feel like it is, like I should CARE what goes on here. That pride of "ownership" is something I really care about. WILL I pay $25 or $10 when it comes time to "re-up"... I probably will end up going whole hog (if it's a bountiful time of the year, and I started my membership in a bountiful time of the year). Will I go to a higher level? I can see that I will go to the "free web hosting" level if I ever get to that point where I need it. But in the meantime I am glad that I reached so terribly grudgingly into the pocket for the first time... because that just showed me that, like the stupid mechanical fish, it's worth it to me, and a whole heck of a lot longer lasting!

Exactly Sasheena!!!
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Also, I keep seeing the word clique. If that is how people wish to see it that is their choice. I personally do not see it that way at all. I see it as a community. And personally I am willing to do whatever is needed to help OUR community thrive. To improve our community. To make it a better place for everyone. The paying and the non paying. I don't think any more or any less of people that opt for the $250 membership or the people who just want the free part. Because we are ALL a part of this community. This may be Richs site, but it is OUR community. Not our clique.

Originally Posted by Glenn Bartley

Your argument that someone who is not willing to pay a fee to this site has little or nothing to do with whether or not they shouldkeep or breed reptiles. I know many people who both keep and breed reptiles and who do not even use this site for free. Since when has use of this site, or payment or support of it, suddenly become a requirement to being allowed to keep and breed reptiles? I am sorry but an argument like that probably makes this site look even less appealing than it had before. I am hopeful that others are not of the opinion that if you do not support this site, you have no right or privelage to be keping and breeding reptiles, amphibians or, any of the other animals discussed within the faunaclassified forums.

As for weeding out deadbeats, from where are you weeding them out, just out of the BOI. Again the clique mentality is taking over, or so it seems. Hey only those of us who pay are good enough to comment about one another. Come now, that is a bit off the mark of the intended purpose of the BOI.

Out of regard for principles I may not remain as an active contributing member of the BOI (contributing posts that is) if a fee is charged for its use. I am somewhat of the belief that such only tends to lend to a loss of validity for the BOI, more so than do the silly, or nasty, or double registered self praising things that some people post there now. To have to pay, in order to speak my words or in order to write them for all to see when I am contributing my efforts, that in essence promote the biggest drawing forum on this site, seems to me as if it would be rather preposterous. So I remain uncertain as to whether or ot I would pay to use the BOI. I simply am not sure if I would pay an actual dues or fee to Rich for this site. I wonder, does that in your opinion make me a dead beat? Does it, in your opinion, make me cheap? Your posts as do those of others, in my opinion, just go on and on in attempts to belittle others who have opinions that disagree with your own. Too bad you would rather not discuss the issue nucely insteasd of being insulting even if only, as I believe you words were so, by implication!

Give you a break you said, no sir you get no breaks from me; not with a reply like yours.

Sincerely with best regards,
Glenn B

Oh please Glen!!! Lets get off your philosophical horse! What were talking about is a way for a man to be paid for what he is doing! I can tell you this I wouldn't put all the time in that Rich does, and not be paid! And I'll bet money that you wouldn't either! As for the dead beats, well maybe that was the wrong word! Dead beats would most likely be someone who won't pay or won't live up to an obligation. May be I should have used the word "TROLL" thats what you call these people who come and go, changing there name at will. Poping up here to make some comment then disappearing only to pop up again with another name! What I am saying is, How do you control this...If you have a legitimate idea than tell us? I'm sure Rich would be very interested! Do you think these "TROLLS" will ante up ten dollars every time they change there name just to make some inflammatory comment? I doubt it...how many paypal accounts do you think they will set up just to do this? As for breeding or keeping reptiles, I stand by my statement if someone would not pay a measly ten dollars to help keep a wonderful site like this going, and to further there education of the keeping, breeding, selling and buying of reptiles than so be it. Let them go there own way.....I have no problem with this. But if they value this site they have a choice they can become part of something larger than themselves, something that will not only help themselves but help the larger picture "FAUNA". So I understand your concerns, your worried that fauna may shrivel away, I think we all worry about that! But isn't it obvious that if this site continues at the "same ol same ol"...then it will surely die! I can only hope that if this doesn't work (and I believe it will) than Rich will at least give someone the chance to try their hand, by selling it!
As for you not thinking that you will pay just to post on the BOI, well that is your prerogative and I'm sure some people here will be sorry to see you leave. but it is a choice that YOU made and you will be the one who has to decide if it is a loss!
As for me being nasty, well i wasn't trying to be, I look at this situation with both eyes open, I also try to look at it thru Rich's eye's. I think I know how he feels as I feel I have to a certain degree "walked in those shoes before"
Sorry if you disagree but ....hey this is America if you don't like it then move!
As for getting a break from you!....keep your breaks, you may need them!

riverjop,
I agree completely with what Glen was saying and if you cannot understand where the clique image you are creating is coming from, then re-read your post. Whenever you have a your for us or against us mentality, that is a clique, gang, or whatever you want to call it. Your comments of not belonging in the hobby are some of the most ignorant and selfish comments I have heard in awhile. I cant imagine the thought process that lead to those comments. Here's another one...
"Sorry if you disagree but ....hey this is America if you don't like it then move!"
More pure ignorance. Do you know what it is to live in America? It is about differing opinions and the ability to live together with them. I guess we should all think alike, talk alike, look alike in your perfect world?
Alot of the people that are for it and against have been on this site for quite a few years and only really want whats best for The BOI and Fauna. Their are quite a few arguments that are valid for paying a membership fee and then their are quite a few options on cutting the workload and focusing on the true draw of this website which is The BOI. I do think if membership is necessary that Glen has come up with the best idea of charging for other forums and posting classifieds, etc... while leaving the main draw free. I personally want The BOI to be available and free to everyone and would pay the $10 fee even though I do not use the rest of the site. It is because I truly believe that charging the fee to post in The BOI will be the downfall of The BOI, or at least its real effectiveness, and I don't really want to pay for that. Am I cheap or do I need to get out of the hobby because I would only pay if The BOI were to remain free? I guess so...
Tom Baker

Mr. Tom Baker you can call it what you want! You say a clique! I agree with Sammy! I feel that it is more of a community! As for ignorant & selfish? Wow !!! maybe you should re-read the post? I said "Let them go there own way.....I have no problem with this." And I meant it! I really don't care if someone doesn't want to pay! I could care less! It's there decision! But to imply that Rich doesn't have the right to make a decent living is "in my opinion" just downright wrong. Sorry if you disagree..but hey This is America that is your right!

(quote) Your comments of not belonging in the hobby are some of the most ignorant and selfish comments I have heard in awhile.

And where did I say that? WOW!
(my actual Quote) As for breeding or keeping reptiles, I stand by my statement if someone would not pay a measly ten dollars to help keep a wonderful site like this going, and to further there education of the keeping, breeding, selling and buying of reptiles than so be it. Let them go there own way.....I have no problem with this.

Again maybe you should re-read it?

(quote) Do you know what it is to live in America? It is about differing opinions and the ability to live together with them.

I couldn't agree more!

(quote) The BOI and Fauna. Their are quite a few arguments that are valid for paying a membership fee and then their are quite a few options on cutting the workload and focusing on the true draw of this website which is The BOI. I do think if membership is necessary that Glen has come up with the best idea of charging for other forums and posting classifieds, etc... while leaving the main draw free. I personally want The BOI to be available and free to everyone and would pay the $10 fee even though I do not use the rest of the site.

Sure new Ideas are welcome! And I think this is a constructive topic, I hope it helps Fauna and Rich in his decision, I'm sure it's not an easy one!

But don't you think he has already done the numbers on Classifieds, banners and other ways he could raise funds?

(quote) Am I cheap or do I need to get out of the hobby because I would only pay if The BOI were to remain free? I guess so...

Why? Why would you only pay if the BOI was free? Why? If thats not an Oxymoron statement, than I don't know what is? If you would only pay if the BOI was free than why would you not pay if there was a fee?
As for me thinking your cheap because you don't want to pay ten dollars, I don't think so at all! I think it's your choice, maybe your taking a stand, maybe you just don't like the idea...I don't care! And I'm not judging you in the slightest.