One More Reason to Test for Adenovirus

Originally Posted by Saladragon

Correction...

I just received an email from Dr. Jacobson asking if I would be willing to particpate in studies while keeping my animals here! You guys, this is so exciting!!! This virus really is still being studied!!!

When I replied to Dr. Jacobson, I asked him if there is a way for us to donate for research, and if so, where we could do so. Hopefully, I'll have an answer for that soon, and will post whatever I find out.

Oh, I'm just so happy I get to keep them here, but still help!!!

That is absolutely terrific!!!!! I'm also excited that you get to keep them with you while being allowed to participate, what a win-win situation!!!

Tere Salazar, the Bearded Dragon Hero. You've done good, Tere. Again, I'm so sorry that you're going through this, but I can't praise you enough for having the courage and decency to help put a little steam behind combatting this virus.

Originally Posted by CheriS

trapieter

I just noticed that you are in the UK, I know that this has started showing up a lot in dragons that were imported to the UK from the US the past two years, have you seen the post about that on the UK sites?

to be honest I haven't seen a particular post on the uk sites on adenovirus, actually there is not too much info on uk forums from what I have seen... most point back to reptile rooms which is where I go along with fauna and a couple of uk forums for my information.. it's more rounded that way.
However I know that alot of breeders import, so I'm sure the virus would have been spread but probably hasn't been picked up upon as much as it in the usa, which is a worry to me. I was about to look into this myself to see if there was a uk version of this going on and research too. it would be interesting to see. hopefully not shocking.

Joanna,

Sent you an email with a UK group, please let me know if you did not get it. I wish you all across the pond better luck in containing this then the US did.

I have had some emails from some other fairly sizable breeders that have tested and said they would be posting on this or another thread shortly. I think if they do we will all see some very interesting data on statistics of positives with newer breeders this past year -opposed to breeders with older colonies.

Originally Posted by CheriS

We're on post #186 and I last posted on #123 ... 63 post ago, because I know on here if threads get to long, people stop reading them and they are counter productive. 20 of us in a chat channel one night were talking about something on this thread and I said I would PM her and lets see how long it takes before someone else heard what was said in that PM. As you can see it was less than 24 hours Bla bla bla twisted words bla bla bla sob story bla bla bla my position bla bla bla my opinion bla bla bla GAWD, Don't ya just love someone with enough knowledge to be dangerous to others and decent breeders !! bla bla bla bla

Um, OK Cheri, Whatever you say. Sounds like a good story, stick with it.

Shall I get permission to post the PM's, then you can answer in the open with FACTS to support the information you stated.

If certain breeders are doing what you have stated, why are they listed on the Bearded Dragon Breeders and Suppliers Network still? Are you not the administrator for that?


I have tried to read everything I could find that has been posted as reference. What has changed in the last 5+ years? In all the years of collecting data, posting info, and calling out breeders.. what has been the progress? I feel the talk is getting cheap, with very little progress made forward. If this is such a epidemic, why have you not pushed to have adenovirus information even put on basic care sheets? Something that simple could make a huge difference. With all the information posted on your website, where is the push for current research. You are still referencing the exact same data from 2002-03'. I would think obtaining research with current data would be your #1 agenda and raising funds your priority. If breeder's refuse to test or share their testing results, shouldn't your focus and energy shift to educating the buyer and obtaining published facts. All the jaw flapping, I need to see more action.

'' I would also rather refer people to you for information on donations and ideas to impliment.'' I agree.... Tere and/or Wendy have both recently experienced the effects first hand, have no history of putting off anyone nor driving wedges, and could really jumpstart this into something productive.

"because I know on here if threads get to long, people stop reading them and they are counter productive." Sorry, but I disagree.. I think this is one of the most honest, compelling, productive thread on this subject to date.

Cheri, for you to assume that you “know on here if threads get to long, people stop reading them and they are counter productive” is insulting to those who have contributed to the 8000+ views on this thread. But I’m not about to pacify you on this comment

And for you to PM someone that neither of us knows with the crap you did about us and other breeders as some sort of test - just shows how manipulative you really are. In addition, there was more than one PM sent by you to various people. How many people on here have become your test subjects in total?

Claiming to have not spoken to a biologist - is a lie. And denying that a virologists information was not also presented to you in that conversation - is just another blatant lie. You are a liar.

You want to manipulate people, dragons and information. Your opinions are repeated so frequently that people now just assume that they are factual and the way things should be. Many of the expectations that you put on people and their animals are detrimental to the community. There are still a few of us around who remember your crusade on coccidia - it absolutely had to be eliminated from all captive dragons - they should NOT have it. You had smaller breeders and newbies dosing their dragons left and right. Guess what?
Albon, albon, albon = fungus, fungus, fungus.

5 years ago we saw errors and holes in the information that was being presented and felt the plan that was being proposed was inadequate. We told you this and that we had spoken with a few breeders back then that had other theories/suspicions. Dan outlined indicators (which we did not see) and the initial information that was presented was NOT followed up - No additional information was forthcoming from Dr. Wentz. The only thing the breeders/community were left with were the very sporadic reports of a viral outbreak, with no pertinent details (until Wendy) and the ever-evolving “Symptoms” article which shows a lack of understanding of this virus and the species itself...

We aren’t saying that what has been done in regards to adenovirus is wrong - just that it has been done with tunnel-vision by being focused on who has it; rather than the facts of it.

How Pathogenic Viruses Work, by L. Sompayrac, P.5
“the diseases that viruses cause are the (usually unintended) consequences of the way each virus has chosen to solve the three problems of reproduction, spread and evasion. What this means is that once you understand how a particular virus solves it’s three problems you should be able to predict the pathological consequences of the viral infection.”

Adenovirus is not a disease - it is a virus that can progress or promote disease if given the opportune circumstances.

Originally Posted by CheriS

I can not ever remember stating anything you posted is irrelevant except the human/child adeno information which I think most people know reptile, other mammals and human virus are extremely different. That has been a common discussion many times in chat channel, emails and PM's, again, no big secret nor am I denying it.

This is the biggest misconception you could possibly present to anyone. Adenoviruses have the same goal and may work in a similar fashion to achieve that goal in the host - whatever the host may be. There are similarities in how the adenovirus itself may effect various hosts and also the situations which may escalate it to illness.

In humans it effects the young - similarly in dragons it effects the young. Would any of us dare to expect our children to defecate and eat off of the same surface? Certainly not - that would re-expose them to the virus and raise the levels to the roof. But that is exactly what we expect our dragons to do.

Take the latest outbreaks of adenovirus in the military population. This was attributed mostly to crowded conditions and stress. Crowded conditions would promote re-exposure and stress which can lower the immune system. I would think that housing many dragons in small enclosure would be considered crowded conditions. These animals in the wild would normally go their merry way and forcing them to do otherwise can create a stressful situation. These conditions seem fairly similar.


And this is information that Cheri deems irrelevant?

(My post in one small bit... TEST THEM ALL)

Alright, I may not be as eloquent as many on this thread, but I wanted to throw my honest opinion out there...

First of all, You'll notice there are very few new people entering these conversations, and many likely stopped reading after the first few pages of consolations... So I highly doubt many people have actually made it to this last page to read.

Now I do not currently own any dragons, but I'm doing quite a bit of research on the subject over the past week or so and will continue to do so. I can say, after reading... That I will NOT purchase Dragons from anywhere that does not state they've been tested, and would highly drive away any and all business I personally can towards Dachiu due to the pure fact that it's constant bickering when testing simply NEEDS to be done. Who cares if they look healthy, It's a virus and therefor we need to help the cause rather than sit by doing nothing.

Consider AIDS in the human world... What is a good reason NOT to test for such things? This is comparable to the same things that we're hearing now about Adenovirus it seems...

Now, if this isn't what the argument is about... then WHO CARES!!?!?! The bickering is annoying at best honestly. Get the Dragons tested, and get this issue under control. Just because a Dragon isn't human, doesn't mean it deserves lesser treatment.

Finally... CheriS... b/c of the sides, you're the one I trust in (Due to factual information,) could you guide me towards any breeders that do test for this virus and changed their ways knowingly? I'm open to On-line Breeders and would prefer such in most cases.

P.S. Please excuse me for anything specific, be it Forum rules I may have broken, or people I may have upset while throwing this information in here. This is my first post on the site, as I was simply looking for recommended Breeders and just removed one from my potential list thankfully.

Thanks for your time... - Jeremy

I'm with Jeremy on this.....where's the harm in testing?
Why not test so that when you sell your dragons, you are able to tell the consumer if they are buying an infected one or a non infected one. I mean, what's the difference if it's like coccidia? This just makes people wonder what you might be trying to hide, Vicki???

Vicki says

Adenovirus is not a disease - it is a virus that can progress or promote disease if given the opportune circumstances.


Just so you know Vicki I am a newbie ... One who has done alot of research much like Viss is doing now.

I went to alot alot of sites looking for information. I do not take yours or Cheri's word I read . I searched I asked questions.

What I did find was the way alot of breeders offer information
as to parents and grandparents willingness to share that information.

Not taking the breeders word for anything especially breeding which dragon to which dragon or family.

Maybe I got lucky b/c this was the third time this was talked about. I also liked the way the ones who have come forth did so in a manner to educate and become aware.

There are crosses that are Positive this I know for a fact as others if reading can determine that also. And from which crosses and whom.

People can stay silent and not say they have this to futher the knowledge of the Virus but it stops us from learning more by being silent.

Your constant dancing and jig dance is insulting to me ..,

as I point out asked you Questions that you did not answer nor will you..

This is a Virus and as such Vicki the opportune circomstances would be

NOT TO BREED ADENO POSITIVE dragons and sell them without stating that they are.

Or contribute like Wendy has done and Saladdragons is doing

These childless back and forths are getting old... the only posts you have made are to go after Cheri and stay away from the issue of

Saladdragon having alot of adenovirus positive dragons in her colony..

It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out what lines these are and where they came from. Just hit goggle and search and read and read
anyone can and Should do this IF they have not done so already

One more slight addition...

Let's put this into terms ALL can understand...

You have your choice to breed HUMANs With... or Without AIDS... Your decision woulld be? (Do I REALLY need to ask this)

Again... Just b/c Dragons aren't human, they still deserve the same treatment you'd provide to your own children.

I've had anough of Who brought Adeno, How they did so, Why it happened, How it's developed as it has, and so on... How about... We control it, and then push forward into repairing said issue. Bicker via PM... Talk about a RESOLUTION via the thread.