Interesting but unethical Hybrid attempt.

Originally Posted by lucille

Off topic a little bit, but I have heard there is a hip dysplasia registry that keeps track of the dysplasia history of the ancestral dysplasia history in certain dog breeds, I think that is a good idea. A parallel problem in snakes, in that it may be genetic, are the eyeless snakes that emerge sometimes, I do not know if a registry would be helpful in those cases, what do you think?

Probably being slightly off topic here is a good thing; this seems to be a hotly controversial subject.

Lucille, you have a great idea. A registry along the lines of the OFA would be of much benefit to the reptiles we keep. I feel it would discourage the breeding of genetically flawed animals, thus reducing the unnecessary suffering this can cause. I had a Golden Retriever stud who was OFA registered. I only would breed him to females who were also OFA registered. NONE of his puppies had this painful, debilitating and unfortunately comon disease. He eventually died of old age at 14 1/2...an end all dogs should get to have. Many are robbed of this because they came from parents who carried this infirmity.

As far as ethical considerations of hybridization, I agree with Paul and Lucille. Think of it this way...we already have 'messed' with a species the first time we propagated it in captivity. We don't mean to change a species, but in order to keep a captive healthy, we do remove all challenges to that animals survival. Instead of coming from a long line of survivors as in the wild, the animals we produce in captivity are the ones that do well in captivity. Our 'genetically pure' pets probably wouldn't do well in the wild. Therefore, WE HAVE CHANGED THEM. The argument that it is reprehensible to produce hybrids in captivity is fundamentally flawed from this standpoint.

The only danger (very real and disturbing) obviously comes from the unethical and the uninformed, who would breed hybrids and sell them as purebreds. In a perfect world, this wouldn't happen, but what we have to think about in order to further our hobby and help captive reptiles is to remember what is good for reptiles *in captivity*. What is good for them is good for those in the wild, as some persons breed endangered animals who aren't furry or cute. Wider public knowledge comes as a consequence of wider public acceptance, and hybridization could help us to achieve this goal. Hybridization is interesting to people, and this attracts attention. In my opinion, public opinion and attention is so important, because it shapes things like responses to cruelity to herps (when is the last time you saw the Animal Cops on Animal Planet arrest someone for being cruel to a reptile?) as well as conservation efforts.

I say we should make every effort to keep pure lines pure, but hybrids should also have a place.

Originally Posted by Southwick Herps

A large python, that grows in excess of 15 feet that is not regularly found past India, that also lives a semi aquatic life mixing with a West African python, that grows usually no larger than 5 or so feet...
Evolution brought them apart from each other for a reason... If nature had intended for them to hybridize, then they would've evolved in the same area, from a common ancestor.
But, thats just my opinion and it's just my "no good info with fancy names slapped on".

You are entitled to your opinion.

I would suggest that you can use opportunities such as this to research and actually master concepts such as the theory of evolution.

You are young and you have much to learn.

Do yourself a favor and sit back and take it easy - there is no reason to attack others on this site just because you are frustrated at the fact that you don't know everything. No one knows everything (and those that do are people you should stay far away from).

Ask questions, be humble, and if you show a genuine interest in learning there are many very knowledgeable people on this forum who I'm sure would be more than willing to augment your education.

There are many reasons why genetically compatible species don't interbreed. Geographic isolation is but one. Your homework assignment is to research genetic drift.

-Scott Ashton

off the argument for a second....

wasnt this already attempted?

Originally Posted by Chris@TSE

wasnt this already attempted?

I wasn't aware of anyone ever trying this until just about a month ago when these same pictures were posted on the BCF. As far as I know this is a new endeavor...at least no one has ever talked publicly about trying something like this before.

Yeah it was. On the first page of this thread, two different kinds of pythons are shown copulating, and ethical concerns were raised about a pairing like this...

I think they regularly breed ATB's and Basins, though...

Incidentally, the guy who got the male ball to breed the female granite burm also posted pics of the same male ball breeding an albino labyrinth burm. (At least he was trying to breed her...the pics weren't all that great.)

Oh! The door has been opened. One comment about the new "designer dogs". Repeatedly I keep hearing them referred to as "hybrids". They are not. They are "mixed breeds". Many of these Puggels (pug/beagle), labradoodles etc are being sold in excess of $1000 per pup! And, people are actually paying that much for them! What burns my behind is that a few MILLION dogs and cats are euthanized in the US EVERY YEAR because there are no homes for them. Since my adulthood, every dog and cat I have had/have were/are shelter rescues. What perverse greed and status clamoring delegates a few MILLION dogs and cats to die because they are not "fashionable" enough. Any fool can produce a labradoodle or a puggel. And, same fool can at least do one kind and responsible thing by getting the parents from a shelter, (or its equivalent).

Originally Posted by coyote

What perverse greed and status clamoring delegates a few MILLION dogs and cats to die because they are not "fashionable" enough. Any fool can produce a labradoodle or a puggel. And, same fool can at least do one kind and responsible thing by getting the parents from a shelter, (or its equivalent).

sigh i hate that stuff, puppy mills and all that. I think it's cool that there several snake breeders who take in rescues as pets. that to me is just a sign that someone loves the animsl. not the only sign, but it's a nice gesture anyhow. I don't know that this is the same problem, but it doesn't sit right either...

Originally Posted by coyote

Oh! The door has been opened. One comment about the new "designer dogs". Repeatedly I keep hearing them referred to as "hybrids". They are not. They are "mixed breeds". Many of these Puggels (pug/beagle), labradoodles etc are being sold in excess of $1000 per pup! And, people are actually paying that much for them! What burns my behind is that a few MILLION dogs and cats are euthanized in the US EVERY YEAR because there are no homes for them. Since my adulthood, every dog and cat I have had/have were/are shelter rescues. What perverse greed and status clamoring delegates a few MILLION dogs and cats to die because they are not "fashionable" enough. Any fool can produce a labradoodle or a puggel. And, same fool can at least do one kind and responsible thing by getting the parents from a shelter, (or its equivalent).

I am in favor of the Texas law that required animals that come from a shelter to be spayed/neutered. Doing that helps to keep down the population of homeless dogs and cats.
While the subject thread is about hybrids, it is more of a discussion of those who are intentionally selecting the parents.
Far too many dogs and cats are left homeless because the owners did not spay or neuter and the litter was unplanned. I think spaying/neutering is a good way to go for many pets; those who do not make this choice should in my opinion be responsible enough so that unplanned litters do not happen.