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Old 02-05-2007, 11:23 AM   #1
SPJ
Selective spider breeding

What do you think about this idea?

I was thinking that the only spiders that should be used for breeding are those that show NO signs of neurological problems (wobble).
What got me thinking was the poor spider that Corey Woods posted a pic of on KS. The thing lays in the tub looking dead with it's head all contorted. He was going to breed this snake but thankfully (IMO) it shows no interest in that.I have also heard of bees and normal spider sibs showing the problems.

Do any of you feel that the spiders with wobbles should not be bred? I think starting with an animal that has never shown the problem from hatchling to adult would be the only animal you should breed. Any that do show the problem should be "pet" animals only.

This trait shows up way too often in the spider gene and I do not think it is "cute". When I looked for a spider, one of my criteria was NO WOBBLE since I planned on using it as a breeder.

I realize it would be difficult to get all people to stop breeding the wobblers but I feel it is ethically wrong to breed an animal exhibiting a neurological problem.
 
Old 02-05-2007, 11:39 AM   #2
Cat_72
I couldn't agree more, Steve.
 
Old 02-05-2007, 12:40 PM   #3
Wolfy-hound
I've got a wobble spider female. Bought her as 100% healthy and got a wobble-headed snake. Still no resolution fromt he seller even as he thinks the snake is fine. "Oh yeah, I'd breed her" was the actual comment.
I won't be breeding her. The ONLY way I WOULD breed her, is if I could find a second male spider wobbler to use as scientific subjects for a university study. There is a PhD vet that studies neurological issues in reptiles. I've been talking to him. Other than that possibilty, Hepburn isn't about to get bred. She is my $2200 lesson in buying from supposedly reputable breeders.
Theresa
 
Old 02-05-2007, 12:58 PM   #4
garweft
To me it is the same thing as a one eyed albino boa, a kinked caramel albino, or a leopard gecko with a abnormaly short tail. Poor specimens should be culled so that they will never be used for breeding.

However money makes people do funny things.
 
Old 02-05-2007, 01:07 PM   #5
LadyOhh
To be devils advocate for a moment, it has been said by many that Spiders that wobble produce non-wobblers, and the other way around as well.

What is your take on that?

I'm rather curious what the basis is for the wobble myself, but since this is just becoming more public knowledge, I'm curious what people think.
 
Old 02-05-2007, 01:17 PM   #6
Wolfy-hound
That is actually one reason why I'd like to see a breeding for study. None of the babies would be sold, but perhaps placed in 'foster' homes with a contracted agreement that they wouldn't be bred, and would be available for examanations regularly. More likely I'd end up with some, with the vet keeping some.. that sort of thing.
Since it shows itself SO often in spiders... I cannot see it NOT being somehow genetic. I've never heard of anyone breeding two wobbles together. A recessive flaw? I don't know, but it would be a thing to check into. I know that people will chime in to say "Oh I had a.. or knew someone who's cousin had a... or saw one for sale... that was a wobble without being a spider." BUT.. most of the wobbles I hear of seem to be spiders. I'd love to somehow contribute to clearing spiders of this undesirable flaw trait.
I love spiders.. and personality wise.. both of mine(wobble headed and the normal male) are GREAT snakes. Wonderfully personable. Everyone at the UF vet hospital ADORED Hepburn for her stay. If she WASN'T a wobbler I'd breed her SO fast!! (as soon as she grows up of course LOL)
I was also told "She'll out-grow it" which she has not. "It could be parasites" which it is not, she has been on anti-parasitic. "It must be stress from shipping" which would have disappeared and it hasn't. She is a 'spinner' or a 'wobbler' and was(most likely) hatched this way, and will die this way.
On this note: I am still looking for a wobble-headed male, but I won't be paying any $2K for it! LOL. Can't afford to pay that much even to help out the study.
Theresa
 
Old 02-05-2007, 01:33 PM   #7
Melinda
Theresa, I am so sorry to hear of your wobbler. I would love to get a spider someday, but scared of this wobbling/spinning stuff.
 
Old 02-05-2007, 02:10 PM   #8
NorthernRegius.com
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melinda
Theresa, I am so sorry to hear of your wobbler. I would love to get a spider someday, but scared of this wobbling/spinning stuff.
I've a sweet CH boy BP that started the whole love of Pythons for us, he developed a defect at age 2 & will never be bred. Selective breeding is about picking & breeding only the best & healthiest animals. We still don't know enough about the genetics to say for certain what is what.

Back when Kevin (NERD) was looking for the Super Spider (before it was agreed that the trait is likely just simple Dom) there was a lot of line breeding... I picked my Spider because the person I bought from had bred 2 generations and NOT line bred. I don't know if that made a difference, but that's what I did. My '05 girl is not a wobble-head and she's very healthy. I am interested in the true cause of the defect, I hope I don't ever have any offspring with the defect- if I did, they would NOT be bred.

I've waited until now to start a T+ project using unrelated hets due to the "kink" issue. I still believe that this colour trait is very sensitive to line breeding and therefore will be using plenty of hets & different strains... I figure it's a 5 year project, but what the heck. While I know line-breeding is necessary to prove out the genetics on WC or CH; for most folks who work with CB should be able to keep defects way down by out crossing as much as possible. (IMHO) -Deb
 
Old 02-05-2007, 02:12 PM   #9
SPJ
My take on wobble head spiders that are bred and have some offspring not showing the trait is this.

The genetic flaw that appears to be tied to the spider gene may not be passed down to all of the offspring, however, it has documented that a spider with a wobble may not produce spiders that wobble but can produce normal sibs with the trait as well as bees with it when bred to a pastel. Now even some people have suggested that pinstripes can show the wobble head. There has to be something linked to the pattern mutation (since pinstripes and spiders both have a similiar type of reduced pattern) and neurological problems. I am beginning to wonder if the reason the so-called super form of the pin has not been photographed is because it has severe neurological problems that would cause issues if a picture was released to the public. If you produced the first apparent super of this animal, why be so secretive and not release a picture? Even if it needs additional breedings to confirm, you would think a photo would be posted. I mean come on, any different looking BP is broadcast all of the net.

Some say that spiders outgrow the problem. I really don't buy that argument since it seems that the largest producers of spiders are the ones that keep saying this.

Also some spiders not showing it at birth have developed it as they get older.

That was the reason why I think only spiders that do not show it from birth to adult are the only ones that should be bred.

Something neurological is tied to the spider gene (or the reduced pattern mutation itself). The only ones who seem to advocate ignoring the problem are mass producers of spiders.

Just like one eyed boas, wobble head spiders should not be bred. It is a genetic flaw and not just a "cute" thing that spider morphs do.
 
Old 02-05-2007, 02:15 PM   #10
SPJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthernRegius.com
I've a sweet CH boy BP that started the whole love of Pythons for us, he developed a defect at age 2 & will never be bred. Selective breeding is about picking & breeding only the best & healthiest animals. We still don't know enough about the genetics to say for certain what is what.

Back when Kevin (NERD) was looking for the Super Spider (before it was agreed that the trait is likely just simple Dom) there was a lot of line breeding... I picked my Spider because the person I bought from had bred 2 generations and NOT line bred. I don't know if that made a difference, but that's what I did. My '05 girl is not a wobble-head and she's very healthy. I am interested in the true cause of the defect, I hope I don't ever have any offspring with the defect- if I did, they would NOT be bred.

I've waited until now to start a T+ project using unrelated hets due to the "kink" issue. I still believe that this colour trait is very sensitive to line breeding and therefore will be using plenty of hets & different strains... I figure it's a 5 year project, but what the heck. While I know line-breeding is necessary to prove out the genetics on WC or CH; for most folks who work with CB should be able to keep defects way down by out crossing as much as possible. (IMHO) -Deb

Very good point. A LOT of line breeding was done to try and find the super form. Those animals were the source of a lot of peoples breeding stock. Line breeding IMO intensified the genetic "flaw".
 

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