Selective spider breeding

Originally Posted by CornNut

The existence of killer bees proves that pastel and spider are at different loci. Actually, as quickly and often as they have been produced tends to indicate that the spider and pastel mutations aren't even on the same chromosome, at least not very close together if on the same.

I thought so, so a homozygous pairing of the Spider gene in a bee could be why some wobble...

Originally Posted by CornNut

I don't think there have been enough spider X spider breedings to account for the spinners. In fact, the average spider might be more outbred than the average egg pulled out of the wild. For whatever reason there doesn't seem to be much interest in breeding spider X spider any more and I'm not sure much was ever done in comparison with all the spider X normal clutches.

Back at the start, I'd argue- but I fear you're right... which would nix the homozyous theory.

Originally Posted by CornNut

One thing that I think is interesting is the idea that some spiders start and stop spinning at different times in their life. Like a lot of the information on this subject it's hard to know what to believe. The pattern would be set by hatching time so if there is a link between pattern and spinning then that would tend to indicate some early development variable or gene penetrance or what the mother was fed or something like that. However, if all appearances of spiders can stop or start spinning at different times it might be more likely some environmental variable like a nutrient in their diet that could be used to control the problem in any spider at any time in its life.

If true, I agree that we might be looking well beyond genetic factors & more towards a environmental trigger. If so, then the defect could be controled. Still, the weakness or predisposition would still technically be genetic, don't you agree? We'd just have to work around it.

Originally Posted by CornNut

With caramels I believe it has to be some variable that has worked by the time they hatch (either kinked or not). If there are some producing large numbers of not kinked caramels it would be interesting to know what they are feeding their rodents. Could calcium or folic acid make a difference? Maybe in both cases something needs to be avoided that normals can tolerate better?

I believe that it's possible that the gravid female may hold the key in the kinking issue- that correct supplimentation to her during the breeding cycle may be the fix... but only time will tell. This is why I need to get to more herp shows & ply a few folks with drink...

Originally Posted by CornNut

To complicate the caramel picture I understand there may be several new variations of caramel that in some cases appear to be compatible but consistently look different. Perhaps there are multiple mutant versions of the gene at the caramel locus (and I'm still not sure this isn't also the regular albino locus - i.e. I don't think caramel and regular albino have been proven not compatible yet). Maybe there will be a version that doesn't have the kinking side effect and culling will result in it eventually replacing the one that does.

Funny you mention this! There is a yellowhead strain of "normal" Albino that is supposed to be genetic yet compatable with other Albino strains, I'm checking into it for my projects. Perhaps the colour & pattern mutations happen to be present in the single animal but can be distributed singly or like you suggest the locus is very complex...

I always enjoy your posts BTW, thanks for taking time to discuss!

Good eyes!! I never spotted the connected head pattern as different. Perhaps something we could look through pictures of non-wobble spiders for? That would be rather ignominous.
I don't think wobbles are homozygous, since non-wobbles have produced wobbles and vice versa, with normals thrown into the mix all over. I thinkt hey may very well be some little side thing that happens to be linked with the spider gene. Some people have said they have non-spider wobblers. Locating them and seeing if they have spider relatives, and if they are in fact wobblers and not injuries or something unrelated would be a good thing. In fact the problem is locating wobblers. You know there has to be quite a few out there(if people haven't culled them all) but getting people to admit they have one, that's a different story.
Wolfy

Here is the male Corey Woods posted pics of that has the severe wobble.
I emailed him asking for a pic of the top of the head if possible. I would like to know if it has the broken head stripe.

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1240278,1240386

you can't see the top of its head in any of those pictures.
wolfy

Originally Posted by Wolfy-hound

you can't see the top of its head in any of those pictures.
wolfy

That's why I said I emailed him about the top of the head.

I hate to double post, but I realized that was an entire thread after I posted about the picture.
In that thread there is the following information,
MKReptile: 2 normal spider siblings that wobbled
Steve Harrison: spider that wobbled when young, but doesn't wobble now. Pic shows a solid band across the back of the head, but it doesn't connect to the side lines.
phoerner: spider that wobbles, is still young but breeding. Pic: no solid line across the back but solid lines from side wrapping to the other side(across the nose-mustache)
DZBReptiles: 3 female spiders, 2 wobble and have no spots, clean pattern, 1 does NOT wobble, and has the alien head type spots.
Kim @ N.A.R.C.: Had some that wobbled but they mostly grew out of it.

Some good information there and a couple posts imply that they had a LOT of wobblers that were bred anyway, producing some non and some wobblers later.
Very tre cool linkage there, thank you!
Theresa

Well from that thread it may be only a matter of time before I see wobbling in my girl's offspring, but I'll still give it a try & hope for the best. It is true that in mammals, (I bred show rabbits & dogs in the past): you linebreed to go for a "type", then outcross to keep the defects down; if you get defects... you cull the defects. That's the accepted procedure. Even with pedigrees & proof of parentage there are certain "typey" breeds I wouldn't touch; too many defects.

If enough BP folks cull & out cross maybe the defect will eventually be eliminated. Since it's a dominant trait it's very easy to outcross but if Kevin's theory is right & it's tied straight with the pattern itself... that's a long road.

The Spider has got to be my favorite pattern mutation (tied with pied). I truly hope we find a way to understand how the motor issues are passed. -Deb

Is this is a connected head pattern you were discussing?



He is not a spinner or a wobbler...

I can't tell if it's all the way connected, if the black outline we see in profile is without break from nose, along sides AND connected in back above the neck then it's the pattern. Good to know he's not a wobber; figures that head markings would be way too simple a way to tell if there's a problem.

Most folks say that if a Spider shows the problem it will be evident when they are young & less so as they age. Has anyone had a young wobble-free Spider develop the problem later? This is important as I need to know how long to hold the offspring from my girl- if none of them wobble I do intend sell a few of them at some point. No hurry, but I am curious what the lastest age is for the potential onset of the defect would be, in order to be confident it's not an issue.

My plan was and is to keep a some females back- the reputation of the Spider as such a hearty morph had me convinced that the females would be good breeders. That's still my plan if the offspring are free of defect like my sub-adult female is.

Well, I just learned of the wobble issue with the spider morph- cause I was starting to freak out about some odd behavior from my spider. I have had the spider for a month, just got it from a show. Just this past sunday I saw it corkscrewing minorly as he was checking out the top of his cage. That was th eonly time I saw him do it, and he doesn't do it outside of the cage.

I am now concerned b/c I planned on breeding him. Truth be told, if I was aware of this issue in th espider morph, I would not have invested in th emorph.

My question is:

How can one prevent from buying a wobbler spider? My spider show sno signs of wobbling when being held, and I have seen him cruising around his cage not wobbling. I have only seen him wobble once.
Now, would a breeder be truthful if asked if the spider they were selling wobbles?
Originally, I just planned on buying a new spider morph in a few months, but I'll be honest- if I ask a breeder if it wobbles and they say no, and it turns out to wobble, i'd be really mad. Yes, the price has dropped, but still, it is alarge chunk of change and I wouldn't want to invest in another spider if it was just going to wobble. How can one go about to be sure to get a non-wobbling spider?

Just for pic reference, here is th epattern on my snakes head. I'd consider him a minor wobbler ( so far, I have only observed him wobbling once, and I am keeping an eye on him to see how severe/how often he wobbles)



:sigh: I wish I knew about this before I purchased a spider morph. BUT worse case scenerio- I have a beautiful pet spider bp.

edf