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Just to prove a point about how easy it is to find an address despite everyone's best efforts...Kevin, I located your full address and phone number in 2 minutes. The city is different then what you have in your profile, but I take it you used Rich's advice and used a PO rather then your home.

Their really is no point in arguing about this. It's Rich's decision and the complaints being made really have no substance. 95% of people's personal information can be found online.

Originally Posted by WebSlave

Seems to me the solution is simple, then. Simply get a post office box in that town. If your privacy is that important to you, the inconvenience and cost of the post office box should be negligible. Since that is really where you do business anyway, then no harm, no foul.

But legally that is incorrect. Im out in the county and therefore not subject to city ordances or other city rules. Why in the world would I want to make it so my business has an address in a town that has laws and ordances against reptiles? That is just opening yourself up for trouble.

The point of this is to give prospective buyers and sellers a reference point to go by in their dealings. If someone lists a bogus location (or full name) HERE, that doesn't correspond to the place and/or person they are asked to send funds or merchandise to, THAT should raise a red flag. But without that reference, then they have absolutely nothing to go on to help save them from a potential scam.

That's what I am trying to do here, gang. Not strip you all down naked in public...

Rich I respect what your trying to do... and I understand what your trying to do. I did however have an honest location listed. Originally I had Arkansas listed. When someone was dealing with me no red flags were ever raised because of the location field. I even went so far as to change it to NorthEast Arkanasas (thus narrowing down my location).... and still no red flags would have been brought up.

I'll use Harald as an example (sorry Harald).... he had NY's capital district (or something like that).... if someone did a search on an address that he had sent them.... then no red flags would have popped up because a google search would show it could be located in the geographic area. But now he risks folks that only have bad intentions finding him.... and for what. He wasn't raising any red flags with his location. He was being honest.... just like I was being honest with Arkansas or NE Arkansas. IF someone got my address and then compaired to my profiles.... a quick google search would reveal that I was indeed in my location.

I'll use your example Rich... lets say I get a PO box somewhere (it wont be in that town thats not reptile friendly).... and now I buy a snake from someone here. I ask them to ship them to my home address.... now you have forced me to raise red flags... because the town with the PO Box (which is listed in my profile)...is completely different from where I am requesting the snake to be sent. Whereas before absolutely NO FLAGS would have ever been raised.

Originally Posted by deborahbroadus

I have a very good Motion Detector Monitored Alarm system. If a window is even broken or opened..alarms sound and lights flash.

I also have a cheapie camera system (that I am going to replace) and pictures of every single animal in my collection.

...and I have rifles and attack parrots.... My neighbors also look out for my house and I have a policeman living next door.

We do what we can to protect ourselves.....

Im happy for you Deb.... but I'd like to try and stop them before they get that far. An ounce of prevention is worth more than a pound of cure.

Thats all I am trying to do... is protect myself by not putting in a town in the location field. Baltimore (I think thats your location) is a very big place compaird to where some of us live. Its harder to find someone in the big city vs a small town where everyone knows everyone.

Originally Posted by TripleMoonsExotic

Just to prove a point about how easy it is to find an address despite everyone's best efforts...Kevin, I located your full address and phone number in 2 minutes. The city is different then what you have in your profile, but I take it you used Rich's advice and used a PO rather then your home.

Their really is no point in arguing about this. It's Rich's decision and the complaints being made really have no substance. 95% of people's personal information can be found online.

I never said I couldnt be found... I said.. .why make it easier!!!

And Steff.... you are incorrect. I dont have a phone number (only a cell)... so why dont ya PM me that info. I honestly think you are wrong

I didn't check if it was a cell versus landline when I posted. Just ran it through a reverse phone number look up and it's coming back as a private landline. The information is from 2008, but I was still able to find it with 2 minutes and if I spent a bit of time, I could follow it. I'll PM you the information.

The point is, putting your City/State on Fauna doesn't "make it easier." Information is already available if you know where to look.

And the point is.... criminals are not very smart. I have to deal with them on a daily basis.... this I know for a fact. If they were smart....they wouldnt be in prision.

This is why I dont tell follk (on here or at work) how I bust someone.... I dont need to give them the info to make them smarter.

fine, not happy about it, but fine.
I put a location, it's where I ship from and where I get deliveries, so that should work.

Originally Posted by RidgeTop Reptiles

There are two MAIN classifieds on the web and Fauna is one of them. Why would I want to cut my potential buyers in half? I know exactly how many visitors I get from each site per month... and if it wasnt for that fact.... I may have very well walked away.

Exactly my thoughts as well.

It's not like I really have any high-end stuff but all it takes is for me (*anyone) to post a pic of a nice snake and some stupid tweeker in the same area sees it and thinks 'easy target for a quick buck on CL' or something.

I know the info is out there and can be found with some digging, I'm just with Kevin on this issue and see no need to make it any easier for some criminal that isn't smart enough to figure it out otherwise. Like I said, call me paranoid, but well, I am.

Originally Posted by TripleMoonsExotic

Their really is no point in arguing about this.

We are discussing it. And, there is GREAT point. Rich has never been one to not permit discussion, and interweaved in this new policy are concepts of personal privacy which could, in this day and age, very much stand to be reviewed.

I personally think the policy is overbroad, and do not care for it the way it has been applied. That does not mean I do not care for Fauna of for Rich, I do care, it means that I think, as applied, this policy is not good.

It may not alter the bottom line, but exchanging ideas and opinions has great value here, IMHO.

Originally Posted by JudyC

Have you even read the reasons why it wouldn't work to separate the rules in this matter between two huge halves of the site? First off, this site is about its classifieds. The discussion forums are a bonus for you to enjoy...not some inalienable right.

This site started with the BOI and is/was about people providing a public service to one another in regards to outing scammers/bad guys.. it was not about the classifieds....the discussion forms, classifieds and money solicitations was a secondary development that came later..people wanted an alternative to KS and their so-called nazi-mods/censorship. If anything in some respects over the years this site has become just as censored as KS has (and people fall over themselves to thank Rich for the privilege of being censored more and more each year but cursed the hell out of jeff when he told his mods to enforce his rules). But at least jeff doesn't force people to give up their personal information unless they purchase an account service and then that information is between him and the person who purchased whatever service from him....it is not announced to the world at large UNLESS the account owner chooses to provide their personal information in their ads/posts.

Originally Posted by JudyC

Second off, the original full-name compliance for the BOI was a single element enforced in a single forum. Still a rather huge job for the mods to keep up with, but they managed well enough. To add in a full name AND location requirement for both the BOI and the classifieds requires a different sort of tool for enforcement...which is having that information included in the permanent profile fields of each member. THAT can not be separated from the discussion forums, no matter how much you might wish it to be.

As pointed out above, it existed in a much smaller degree than the new rulings. To make sure that each and every post in the classifieds included a full name and accurate location the same way they check for names on the BOI would be overwhelming and ridiculously work-intensive.

The BOI is not 1 forum, it is currently 8 forums.

And with the way everyone is going on it sounds like you all agree that it would be LESS time consuming for the mods to check every post made across 114 forums to make sure all posts are in FULL compliance of the new rule than it would be to check posts made on the classified forums... which is about 38 forums (40 if you count the member-to-member flea market forum and the adoptions forum)... 114 versus 38(40)....and there are a number of classifieds that are not busy.. a couple ads a month if that.

Originally Posted by JudyC

Who can say who it would have stopped? You don't know. And there are MANY MANY more small-time scammers that are just as guilty of stealing money as the "well known" people. Most of those small timers are not particularly smart and will either be stymied by having to include their location, or will get caught lying about it. Of course, no tool will catch EVERYONE intent on being dishonest...but if Rich wants to put one more layer of protection on top of the ones he already offers, what is so wrong with that?

The majority of the scammers/bad guys outed on this site are those who gave their victims their locations from the beginning. Look at all the SMART people who were taken in by Chris Johnson and who stood up for him when a few people questioned his validity.... they stood up for him and slammed the people who tried to warn them until those folks finally had to learn their lesson the hard way when it was proven he was without a doubt a scammer. Look at all the SMART people who were taken in by the Wise's...they didn't try to hide where they were from. Look at the people who did not want to believe that High End Herps was not who he said he was and did nothing but slam the people who tried to warn them about what kind of deal they were walking into when dealing with him...calling it a proverbial "witch hunt" on an upstanding breeder. ....years of work by a few people trying to warn people about Damon Heynen/David/Josh/and however many other alias'... and the sad thing is it took a little DOG owner to finally bring his ass down this time when the Herp community stood by all these years looking the other way.

The number of scammers who try to pretend to be from some place other than where they say are few and far between in comparison to the bulk of the scammers who DO NOT HIDE. HEH is one of the few scammers who does try to hide his real identity but again even if the new rule had it existed before now it would have DONE NOTHING to have stopped him. He lies about who he is but gave his actual location. He's pulled this stunt as he's moved across the country getting busted and arrested and skipping town to start all over again....and looking at the latest developments.. he's on the run again.. skipped out on his bond just like the last time. You can be sure he'll show up again under a new name but a valid location and people will be scammed by him all over again.

This new rule isn't going to do a damn thing to help this site other than put legit users at risk and leave the door standing open to the scammers who don't bother to hide in the first place.

Originally Posted by RidgeTop Reptiles

Another example... take the airport body scanners.... your going thru a digital strip search that leaves nothing to the imagination. Some will say its to keep you safe.... but once again.... when will people say enough is enough. How much privacy do we have to give up in the name of safety. I'll tell you how much Im willing to give up. They can kiss my !!! I refuse to go thru one of those. I am not a criminal and I will not be treated as such!

At what point do we say..... I dont need you to protect me anymore.

And to take that example further... the Feds PROMISED ....PROMISED that the pornographic "images" their scanners take of you and your children could NOT be saved/recorded... that they were erased shortly after being examined... guess what...THEY LIED. The feds were forced to admit that those images can be saved/recorded and thousands upon thousands have been saved/recorded and stored already.

So.. if we want to keep using this site in any shape/form then those of us being forced to provide personal information under duress (outside of business transactions in the classifieds) is Rich going to promise that we are NOT being put at risk? I think for legal reasons he's not going to make such a promise.