Fur and Feather

Webslave, please move this thread if you feel it doesn't belong on the BOI. I wasn't sure where to post it.


Until All the facts are in, I don't want to specifically blame them but based upon the facts so far, I can say this.

I WILL NEVER BUY FEEDERS FROM THEM AGAIN!

Here is what happened. I HAD a female BP that was strictly a mouse eater. I only had frozen rats and fuzzies left (poor planning on my part and I ran out) so I went and bought a live mouse. I pre-killed it and fed it to the female.
The next morning, the female is bloated, laying half on top of her hide, and DEAD.
I told F&F that their feeder killed my snake and wanted cash value for what had happened (I didn't want one of their dehydrated BP's). I also went in with my digital camera and showed them the pic.
Well, I was told that the mouse did not kill the BP, but I did with poor husbandry and there was NO way they were going to be held liable.

I am going to try and talk to the owner tomorrow but if the employees are any reflection of how the store is run, then I guess I am screwed. I also plan to take the snake to get an autopsy tomorrow to see what the cause of death was.

I lost a beautiful high contrast, high white, female BP. These are not easy to come by.

what makes you so sure it was the mouse that killed the snake. The only factual thing we know so far is that you killed the mouse! JERRY TRESSER

Here is what happened. I HAD a female BP that was strictly a mouse eater. I only had frozen rats and fuzzies left (poor planning on my part and I ran out) so I went and bought a live mouse. I pre-killed it and fed it to the female.
The next morning, the female is bloated, laying half on top of her hide, and DEAD.

Steve,

I'm sorry for your loss. With regards to the reason that cause the death it's difficult to say at the distance but it seems unlikely that it was the mouse. The mouse was alive and well, and you had to kill him in order to feed it. I'm not even sure if any ailment from the mouse could actually affect the python, but in 24 hours? That seems way to fast. I think it was pure coincidental.

regards.

Daniel.... Haven't you figured out by now that no matter what happens to an animal, it ALWAYS falls back on the dealer???.... Never in a million years will the owner of the animal take responsibility for ANY death!.... That's one of the reasons we, as dealers, have so many disclaimers???.... We HAVE TO protect ourselves....
There is NO WAY that a freshly killed mouse could kill a snake.... UNLESS, of course, the mouse was NOT dead, and, after swollowed, bit the snake from the inside!! (I've seen that happen)....
I'm very sorry to hear of your loss, Steve.... but, why does everybody have to jump the gun to post bad guy threads???.... You should NOT have posted this thread until AFTER your ECROPSY was finished!!.... What are you going to do when you find out that it was something else that killed the snake??.... Apologize???.... Big Deal!.... The damage is already done!.... You did the wrong thing here, buddy!

....Neil

gotta add my sentiments to the rest Steve. You jumped the gun on this one. Why didn't you wait until after you had the snake axamined by a vet? What would it have hurt to wait a couple more days? Now, when the vet finds out that the mouse had nothing to do with the snakes death (as I strongly suspect he will) your retraction will get lost in this "Bad Guy" thread, and many people probably won't even see it.

I am reminded of a quote I heard on the radio, I believe it was made by a conressman or something. He said, something to the effect of I would rather be accused of robbery and found guilty, than be accused of child abuse and found innocent. His point of course that once the accusations are made not everyone listens to, or cares, what the outcome of the case is.

To the Webslave: If in fact the vet determines the mouse had nothing to do with the snake's death, this is one instance where I can think that a separate thread would be warentd exhonerating fins and feathers

Steve Schindler

I agree that there is a very small chance that the mouse killed the snake. Post-eating temps?
There may be a small chance though. You would need to spend $200 on pathology to prove it. I know that lizards can die of salmonella w/in 24 hours of eating an infected rodent. It is rare, but it does happen. Only pathology can tell you.
My guess is that that is not the case, but I thought I'd mention it anyways.
Dana

I also find it had to believe that a pre-killed mouse had anything to do with the death of the snake. I had a customer come to the store and buy two rats. The next day he calls me ranting that one of his ball pythons died from eating the rat. He totally blamed the store for his loss, however, after further questioning the snake had symptoms of a SEVERE URI. He still refused to believe that the rat didn't kill his snake, so I told him to get a necropsy done and if the vet proved that the rat had something wrong with it, that caused the death of the snake, I would replace the snake. Never heard from the guy again.
I'm not saying that your snake has a URI but you did indeed jump the gun. I would have to see a vet report stating that the mouse had something wrong with it. It is possible but you have to prove it first.

Just a question and a bit of a story...

Is this place related to the "Fin Fur and Feather" chain that exists, in smaller numbers than the big two, nationwide? Screaming yellow building, usually a small place in a strip mall (although not always), crammed to the roof with animals and charging $11 for a 60 watt heat bulb?

And... this happened years ago... so it's really not an automaticly valid reflection on what the place may or may not be like now, as I haven't set foot in the building since but... It was a Fin Fur and Feather in Massachusetts... Similar situation to Steve, needed a single feeder animal, was in too much of a rush and purchased one from this place... It was sold as a "feeder rat", the sign on the tank listed it as such and the clerk asked me what I was feeding... Fed it, prekilled, to a BCI, later that night the BCI was dead.

Upon questioning the store I come to find they had used dog flea powder in the substrate of the rat tank and on the animals themselves (which had mites or fleas of some kind), didn't see anything wrong with this and thought nothing of these animals being used as feeders for herps, I never confirmed it or got any names, but the kid who answered the phone told me about a half dozen animals in the area had apparantly died before they caught on that this wasn't a safe practice... I was given $120 for the BCI (which had been free anyway and it honestly wasn't worth the difficulties to ask for more) and never went in again. I blamed myself for not asking and assuming these people weren't the type to wear velcro shoes because knots were beyond them and because I have bad eyes, if I don't look closely at something, I'm not likely to notice little things like small patches of missing fur or mites.

So... it is possible that there was something about the feeder which could have led to the snake's death, although it's a bit of a longshot. Parasites wouldn't be likely to cause that amount of damage overnight but there are potential contaminants that could certainly cause that sort of reaction... Only problem is proving it, they told me outright what had been the likely cause and offered compensation which obviously isn't the case here, so the burden of proof is on Steve to provide.

Same place, except now it is $11 for a 40 watt bulb. They shortened the name a few years ago.

I should have the details withen the next day or two.

The BP had no RI. BP's do not eat if they are sick or if they are in less than optimum conditions.

She was healthy, fed, and died.

I have a friend that raised his own mice. He had 5 new hatchlings. He lost 3 hatchlings with 24 hours of their first feeding. He kept his mice on "cedar chips". The older snakes never had an problem, so he never gave it a second thought. He figured the hatchlings were weak and just died. The next time he fed he lost the last 2. This time he took them to the vet for a necropsy. By the time the vet had the info form filled out he didn't feel a neropsy was needed. He said the cause of death was most likely from the cedar chips used as bedding in his feeder rodents. He offered to go ahead with the necropsy, but my friend chose to pass on it. He now uses aspen for his mice and hasn't lost a hatchling after feeding since.
I don't know if this info is helpful, but it is a case where a healthy mouse (pinky) "may" have caused the death of a snake. A necropsy was never done, so the cause if death isn't 100% sure.
Anyway you might want to check what kind of substrate the shop uses for their mice.
Good Luck