what happens to a pyro when you shake in a little kingcorn?

Jeremiah... I think they are beautiful !

I have just spend an hour reading the complete topic and now I understand the reaction on My topic by Mr. Haley.

and now I understand the reaction on My topic by Mr. Haley.

Somehow I suspect that this is not the case.

Keep browsing the hybrid forum, read every thread posted here and there is a possibility... A slight one perhaps, based off your defense of your disgusting mutt... but a possibility that you *might* understand my response.

I do not mean that I understand your opinion on hybrids, but I understand that you are absolutely not openminded to what other people think of something.

You make someone feel he's a criminal because he thinks a certain snake is beautiful. I think that's rather blunt.

Your opinion is "the only right opinion" and there is no room for other opinions.
I think that's very arrogant.

You tell people what they are and what they do wrong, but you tell nothing about yourself (snakes you keep, breed, etc.)

English is not my first language, so don't convict me for possible misstakes.

Hybridisation between two languages... you are a hufter in the way you discuss.

Another Dutch hybrid.... do you like this one?

I understand that you are absolutely not openminded to what other people think of something

There's a difference between being closeminded and requiring overwhelming evidence before changing a view on a subject.

Provide me with enough evidence and I'll happily change my stance. Provide me with nothing concrete or simple emotional reactions and responses and... Well, I won't be changing what I believe to be true.

You make someone feel he's a criminal because he thinks a certain snake is beautiful. I think that's rather blunt

Yes, I do in this case.

Hybrids are dangerous to the general captive population of either of the parent species... it's an insidious danger, a hidden danger... but a very real and tangible one that needs to be regarded as a potential threat.

As much as you or the individual who produced the neonate that you were supplying photos of may be honest and trustworthy individuals who will accurately represent any animals that happen to be leaving your collection, there is no way for you to guarantee that the animals leaving your possession will always remain in such good hands. Creating hybrids isn't the hard part... eliminating the hybrids from the larger gene pool if there is a leak is the difficult aspect.

As an example... In the United States, there is a great demand for phenotypical morphs with a genetic cause in reptiles, especially snakes. These recessive mutations are fairly hard to come by originally, often originating entire captive populations from a single wild caught animal and the price and public demand for anything new can be outrageous. Because of this demand, some unscrupulous individuals have taken species with an established phenotypical anamoly and crossed the animals into a speecies which had not previously displayed this trait, creating hybrid offspring that are heterozygous for the color morph. These offspring are crossed to produce hybrid animals which display the recessive trait and then, in many cases, great care is taken to try and remove the physical traits of the species which the phenotypical oddity originated in and rarely if ever is the true origin of the morph for the second species discussed, much less publically advertised.

This leaves some degree of the genetic material from another species floating around in the larger captive gene pool for the second species.

Trying to outbreed ANYTHING and eliminate a trait or a set of genetics from a bloodline or a population is difficult almost to the point of impossibility. Our own webmaster had a situation with a line of corns that were throwing oddly colored offspring awhile back and I believe he estimated the removal of the contaminated genetics would take, at a bare minimum, five or six generations of line breeding to identify animals carrying the undesireable trait. This is with something as easy as a recessive color trait which ended up in a breeding group that it didn't belong in... Less honest individuals would have simply failed to mention the possibility of varying genetics. Now imagine the process needed to identify less obvious genes that are present from an interspecies crossing.

Your opinion is "the only right opinion" and there is no room for other opinions.

Well of course my opinion is the right opinion... If it wasn't, then I'd change it.

There is plenty of room for other opinions, but there is also plenty of room for debate and defense of that which I believe to be true... If you find my position unyeilding, it is only because you have not supplied an argument which can convince me to change my stance. A strong enough argument with enough evidence can't be denied.

I think that's very arrogant

Perhaps.

I think I can back up MY position.

It's not arrogant if it's right.

You tell people what they are and what they do wrong, but you tell nothing about yourself (snakes you keep, breed, etc.)

Yes I do... When their actions damage or potentially damage the animals, the industry, the hobby and the science that I love.

I don't stay quiet about; hybrids, venomoids, people breaking laws, laws that should be changed, true animal abuse, defrauding customers, jerking around sellers, liars, bad care information and PETA activists.

If you had specific questions about what I keep/have kept, breed/have bred or anything else... go ahead and ask. I might even answer.

There were, at one point, a few other threads about hybridization, intergradiation, natural occurances, the problems with taxonomy, behavioral science and the ethical and moral issues surrounding hybridization in captivity. I *believe* the threads found an eventual home in the same forum this thread lies in. There's only four or five threads under this heading... Please read them all if you would like a more complete view of my thoughts on the subject; I intend no disrespect but I'd rather not have to go back and rewrite things I have already written... once you're "caught up" with the discussion as it has evolved, I'd be happy to entertain anything new you might want to go over or thoughts you would like to add.

I intend no disrespect

that's almost funny.

If you had specific questions about what I keep/have kept, breed/have bred or anything else... go ahead and ask. I might even answer.

what do you specifically keep/breed seamus?

i think that is in fact a specific question.

There is plenty of room for other opinions, but there is also plenty of room for debate and defense of that which I believe to be true... If you find my position unyeilding, it is only because you have not supplied an argument which can convince me to change my stance. A strong enough argument with enough evidence can't be denied.

still think all hypos have no brown??

Well Mr. Haley,

i've read all the topics (ofcourse) and also discussed this same matter on various Dutch forums.
I understand whàt you are saying and I agree that there is a risk.
I never said I didn't.

What bothered me the most is the way you discuss. I don't think this does any good.
But enough about that.

My point was... you can look at something, think it is wrong and still see the beauty of it.
Those are two different things to my opinion.
You think it isn't.
Ok, so we disagree.
But who cares.

We agree on venomoids, people breaking laws, laws that should be changed, true animal abuse, defrauding customers, jerking around sellers, liars, bad care information.
I do not know what Peta activists are.

I have dealed with this a lot. I am co-founder of
ReptileZoo Iguana Vlissingen and we took care af many thousnads abused, smuggled, seized, dumped and ill reptiles, amphibians and reptiles.
I've seen (and smelled) enough.


Something to think about... there will come a tme that most (pure) species will be forbidden to keep in captivity. Maybe the hybrids will fill the gap. Who knows.

Friendly greetings from Holland

p.s. you did not comment on the hybrid of a L.g.californiae X Femke Jansen Didn't you like her?

I do not know what Peta activists are.

In this case ignorance is indeed bliss. You don't know how fortunate you are. We only wish the same were true in this country.

As far as the topic of hybrids, I believe my position has been adequately detailed in a few of the other threads as well. Basically I agree with Seamus in every point he has made on the subject.
Rehashing my opinions here would be redundant.

The board seems to have eaten my response... I'm a bit too busy to retype it again, I'll add it once more later today when I get a few moments.

Hey Alphonzo Im glad you like the pyroXkingfXcorns and as for semaus dont mind him you arnt the first person whos time he has wasted.With all due respect mister davenport I am sorry you have been misguided to agree with seamus on anything!

Jeremiah Ronsonet
Diablo Snake Farm

With all due respect mister davenport I am sorry you have been misguided to agree with seamus on anything!

You've got it backwards... No big suprise there, is it?

Clay has been an "Internet Herper" for a lot longer than I have been, his writings on the subject, found posted at times in various forums and on his web page really refined the views which I had shared but not fully developed on the subject. The sentiment has been there for decades, the refinement was due, in part, to Clay and a few others online.