Terms of Sale Anger

This isn't really a new topic, but the older threads are REALLY old so I figured a rekindled discussion might be worthwhile.

I actually just finished reading an old thread on the BOI concerning the interpretation of a seller's guarantee and what kind of responsibility a buyer accepts upon replying in an affirmative fashion, but in reading it, the "guarantee" offered by the seller sickened me in both it's content and the selective application. Essentially the seller refused to be responsible for shipping costs, didn't guarantee animals under a huge list of conditions, stated that shipping dates wouldn't be confirmed prior to actually handing the animals over to the carrier and gave their buyers an hour after the shipment arrived to make contact about any problems... an HOUR!

Bunch of absolutely ridiculous ways for a seller to duck culpability and sell crap animals or use poor shipping methods and end up without any guilt or responsibility for the sale.

So pretty much, the following is a couple lists... things I think a seller should and should not be responsible for, things I think a buyer should and should not be responsible for...

Seller responsibilities-

• A seller owns the animals until they are physically in the buyer's posession. This means that carrier mistakes are the fault of the seller, as they were commited by the seller's chosen delivery agent. The buyer paid for a living, presumably healthy animal. If they don't get it, you owe them a refund.
• The seller is responsible for the method, time and manner of shipping. They have the goods or animals being sent, they have the final call about when and how it's safe to do so. Animals can be sent anywhere, year round if they're packaged properly. If a seller does not feel comfortable enough with their packaging methods and starts adding qualifications when they feel they are not responsible, then they have no business shipping animals under those conditions. Examples are "No guarantee if temperature is below forty degrees or above eighty degrees anywhere along shipping route" or "No live arrival guarantee on amphibians" If you can't ship safely under certain conditions or for certain species... DON'T SHIP
• A buyer is purchasing live, healthy animals in most cases. Clearly there may be exceptions to this, but if a buyer pays for a live, healthy animal they need to be given some time to verify the condition of the animals. Insisting that contact be made immediately upon delivery or within a short period of time is absurd. A buyer needs more than an hour to verify fully that the animals paid for are exactly what they have reccieved. In my opinion, twenty four hours to observe the animal's appearance and behavior is about the minimum which is acceptable. Any less than that and a proper and thorough assesment can not be made.
• Certain traits of an animal are muteable, certain traits are not. Health can change if an animal is kept improperly by your buyers. Gender, genetics, phenotype, species and so forth can not (er... normally anyway, for herps). Not every buyer will know how to sex an animal or do a proper fecal exam in their home, a longer duration of time should be allowed to verify such selling points as "Female" or "Parasite Free" or "Candoia aspera" How much longer... I dunno. But longer.
• Shipping costs are the seller's responsibility in every direction they need to go. If you send someone a dead/sick/mutilated/misrepresented animal, any refunds need to cover the cost of shipping paid to get the animal to the buyer, and if needed, to get it back to the seller. The shipment is a service the buyer is paying the seller for, it's part of the total sale and the buyer shouldn't have to pay FedEx/USPS/UPS/Airborne/Delta to correct the seller's screw ups.

Non-Responsibilities of a Seller-

• A seller has no responsibility to ensure that you are legally allowed to keep any given species. They need to ensure that their shipping is legal, but can not be expected to settle fights with your town/county/landlord/parents. If they can legally ship an animal to you, the rest is up to you.
• A seller is not married to a sale for the remainder of their/your life unless they agree to be in advance. Most sellers will be sympathetic to problems occuring immediately outside of their guarantee period, but they have no real responsibility eight days into their seven day health guarantee. If you approach them politely, they *might* do something for you, but are not obligated.
• To a seller "It arrived and looks great." means exactly that. It's a sign of a happy customer and, if that's all the communication they get by the end of their individual guarantee period, the sale is over. Don't come back outside of the guarantee duration and start saying the animals looked sick upon arrival or the packaging was beaten to hell or the animals were missing important body parts. The second a happy customer hits the end of the guarantee, that animal is THEIRS.
• Similarly, if a seller offers full compensation according to their stated terms and a buyer rejects it, sale complete, end of story.

The above was pretty much off the top of my head, early on a sunday morning... I'm positive that there are situations I forgot to mention that either myself or others can add... I'm also pretty sure there might be some dissenting opinions, since I know a few sellers who have terms of sale which directly contradict a few of my above points. I'm open to discussion about any of it... I welcome it, I encourage it, I appreciate it.

I should also add that there are some situations which fall outside of everything above. Wholesale situations are vastly different than a single animal sale, or the mix-mash "One of those, six of these, two of those" kinds of orders an end consumer or retail reseller might engage in. Rescues and adoptions are also governed by their own sets of "rules that everybody agrees to"

1. If you don't like a person's terms, move on. No one is forcing you to buy from them.

2. I didn't quit working for someone else, who dictated the rules and conditions of my daily life for 8 - 14 hours just to hand the reins of that yoke over to a new "boss". I took on the responsibility and stress of building a business from nothing to allow me the freedom to do business as I see fit, to succeed or fail on my parameters.

3. Personally our terms are the bare minimal that we'll do to satisfy the customer. It is a way to protect us from unscrupulous customers (see 4.). We will commonly step above and beyond our terms to make people happy.

4. Your conditions are all fine and dandy when the deal is between two people who are honest. There are bad buyers out there that we need protection from as well. I've had people tell me the animal never arrived when I have their signature from UPS. I've had people tell me we sent the wrong animal, when the number marking has been altered (we never numbered the animals as high as the "new" number was) and the pattern pictures of the animal matched our original photos. Granted these scenarios are less than 1% but still with the margins represented online we have to protect ourselves to remain liquid.

Now that we've had rants on both sides can we get back to keeping herps?

A seller owns the animals until they are physically in the buyer's posession. This means that carrier mistakes are the fault of the seller, as they were commited by the seller's chosen delivery agent. The buyer paid for a living, presumably healthy animal. If they don't get it, you owe them a refund.

Seamus,

In my opinion this one needs an amendment. The above is true only IF the buyer receives the animal at first attempted delivery. We have heard of countless ocasions where the package was left at the doorsteps or was picked up by a friend or neighbor.

Regards.

In my opinion this one needs an amendment. The above is true only IF the buyer receives the animal at first attempted delivery. We have heard of countless ocasions where the package was left at the doorsteps or was picked up by a friend or neighbor.

Good point. As I said, it was a fairly quick list, open to amendment and discussion and I fully agree that a buyer has responsibilities in a transaction as well.

If you don't like a person's terms, move on. No one is forcing you to buy from them.

That's an excellent point as well... I was trying to open a broader discussion surrounding what terms I felt were and were not acceptable from a logic/ethics standpoint as opposed to attacking any particular seller's terms. If I might ask... which items did I list that seemed to be taken a bit personally (or I may be reading your post all wrong)? Would you be open to discussing your reasons for having terms which might conflict with what I wrote above?

Seamus,

I don't have an issue with most of your terms that you pointed out and actually feel that we have more liberal terms than what you pointed out.

What I feel a lot of people fail to realize is that there is risk involved in both directions during a transaction, which is amplified when done via online/mail order. A large percentage (95%+) of transactions go off without a hitch. But a seller's terms establish the level of risk they feel comfortable with during the transaction. It may have nothing to do with the quality of animals or service but rather their personal experiences with getting burned by customers.

Personally I feel a companies terms should be as liberal as possible to encourage more sales but at the same time protect themselves from the "bad" customers out there. For us, this is a carefully balanced equation that is reviewed on a very frequent basis. Too liberal and your scammed all the time and out of business, too strict and your not generating sales and out of business.

Here's a situation related to terms of sale that has bothered me. I haven't hit it yet, but I am certain it is coming one of these days.

Let's say your guarantee period is 30 days from delivery of the animals. On day 29 your customer calls you and says that one of the animals just doesn't seem right. Do you extend the guarantee period for this animal? If so, for how long? Or do you put the customer on the spot to have them decide right then and there to either return the animal or accept it as is?

This can apply to shorter time periods as well, of course. Does someone contacting you about a POSSIBLE problem right before your guarantee period expires "stop the clock"?

What about these. My terms/identifiacation sheet is also included with the snake when sent. They have the photo ID and pertinent info about the animal on the top of this form for each animal sold.

One of these terms came about because someone wanted a refund due to mites and when I asked where they housed the animal I sent them they told me it was with other animals (not even the same species). I also had someone request a refund because they did not realize how much the setup for the snake would cost.


Terms of Sale:

Payments:
Paypal is accepted thru my email address.
Postal Money orders
Personal checks – must clear prior to shipping.

Shipping:
Airborne/DHL overnight to your door.

Guarantee:
Live Arrival:
Live arrival guaranteed ONLY if the package is signed for on the FIRST delivery attempt.
NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR CARRIER DELAYS OR MISHANDLING.
In the event of a DOA, you must notify me immediately. If you do not notify me within 2 hours after arrival then you WILL NOT be entitled to a claim.
In order to have a valid DOA claim you must return the dead animal to me using the enclosed shipping label along with this terms/identification sheet. Do not dispose of the animal. If the dead animal is not sent back to me, I WILL NOT consider any claim to be valid. If the terms/identification sheet is not sent back to me, I WILL NOT consider any claim to be valid.
If your claim is valid then I will either:
1] Refund your money
OR
2] Replace the animal if another one of equal value is available.

Health:
All animals are guaranteed to be outwardly healthy, feeding, and parasite free when leaving my facility and are guaranteed to be this way for 24 hours after arrival.
This guarantee is VOID if the animal is placed in a community enclosure. It must be kept separated from other animals during the 24 hour period.

Buyers Remorse:
NO refunds will be issued after the receipt of the animal due to buyer’s remorse. It is the buyer’s responsibility to research the care and expense needed to properly care for any animal purchased.

Does someone contacting you about a POSSIBLE problem right before your guarantee period expires "stop the clock"?

I think that's up in the air and would depend on the individual communication you had with your customer. Ideally you'd get some fairly detailed information about the situation AND an idea of what they want done about it... and then go from that point. I think the seller should have the out to offer an appropriate refund and cut their losses, but if they're sympathetic to the situation, they might choose to extend the guarantee period for a dfined amount of time to see what develops.

NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR CARRIER DELAYS OR MISHANDLING.

That I have an issue with in most cases.

As a typical scenario, a buyer will approach a seller express an interest in an animal and pay for the animal and shipping. The buyer is paying the SELLER for delivery. The seller generally chooses an agent to perform the services they have been paid for. Until that animal is physically in the buyer's posession, they certainly do not own it. Now Steve... you state it in your terms, so the buyer agrees to it but that would keep me from entering a transaction with you... If the agent you selected to deliver my animal and perform the services I paid you for decides to run the box over with a truck and smash everything inside it, I would want my money back.

Now Steve... you state it in your terms, so the buyer agrees to it but that would keep me from entering a transaction with you... If the agent you selected to deliver my animal and perform the services I paid you for decides to run the box over with a truck and smash everything inside it, I would want my money back.

In that type of situation, I would have to agree with you. I would end up refunding the money and then filing a claim.

I make sure that I do not even move the money from my paypal account until after I am sure the customer is happy with their purchase. This way if there ever is a problem, I can refund the money immediately.

My terms are constantly changing to reflect what happens with various sales.

I had never really thought about the carrier part this way before. Now that you bring it up this way, I may have to reconsider it. It might just be a deterrent to some potential customers. I have never had a problem with the carriers (except for late deliveries) and no one has ever bought from me has questioned the carrier part before.

Definitely food for thought especially since I have a package going out tomorrow with these terms and ID attached to it.

Steve

I don't want to tell you how to set your policies, but I am with Seamus on this one. I will not do business with anyone who uses the "not responsible for carrier error" type TOS. As Seamus said. I paid you to deliver me a live healthy animal. If UPS loses the box or if their plane is delayed and the animal arrives dead it is up to the seller to make good on the deal. When I sell non living things online (ebay for example) I will always put in the option for insurance. If the person opts to pay for it great, but if not, I will still make good if the item arrives damaged. If it is a high dollar item I will purchase insurance myself, or if it is a small amount I will just take the chance. Of course, as was pointed out, if the buyer is not around to receive the package on the first try then that changes things.

Steve Schindler