What would you do?

Christina,

You said that you decided not to send these torts back because Rose had told you that she intended to resell them, and you thought it was wrong for her to do so because they were obviously sick? Well, that's very admirable, but here are a few things that bother me about that concept:

1) You told Rose that you were satisfied with the hatchlings as they were when you received them. "I don't have a problem keeping them I just want to get them into the vet." "The resp. infection is nothing, cold air and shipping is stressful on any animal and it has nothing to do with the shipper or the supplier. you guys did a great job on the packing . . ." "The only thing I am worried about so far is the one blowin bubbles but I have experience with them so He should be fine. they are in great hands, and came from a great place." "Oh no, I wasnt suggesting you sent out sick animals. they are great . . ." "They will be fine, don't worry. you did nothing wrong."

Every one of those quotations are from emails you sent to Rose on 3/31/04 after she told you not to soak the animals. You bent over backwards to tell her that Rose was NOT at fault for anything at all. She packed them properly,but they got cold. You said that was the way it was, and you went on to tell her that you could handle this resp infection ... it was no big deal, and the torts were in your capable hands; Rose didn't need to worry about anything.

Now, SHOULD you have done that? I don't know. I didn't see the torts, so I have no frame of judgment. But the fact is that you did write those things. Now, look at it from Rose's perspective for a moment. Either you were lying when you wrote those things, or you are lying now. Either you WERE satisfied with the deal as it was on that day, or you WERE NOT, but you cannot have it both ways. Maybe you were simply telling little white lies at first to spare Rose's feelings or to leave the door open for future deals, but regardless, why should Rose trust you now?


2) You also said that you did not get back to Rose any sooner about the animal being so sick, because you had too much going on with your family, school, and the daily necessities of life. I understand that completely. However, how is that any of Rose's problem?

I mean, her policy (which you quoted from her TOS) is that if you do not tell her you want a replacement or credit within one hour after receiving your animals, she offers no further compensation. The fact that your life was too busy to comply with that requirement is certainly not Rose's fault, is it?

Further, when you say that your life was too busy to deal with this issue, what are you saying about the importance of this deal to you? I mean, you chastise Rose and insinuate that she is in it only for the money, but then tell everyone here that your family life and your college career was more important to you than complying with Rose's business practice requirements? Can you not see that Rose has a life too? Do you suspect that she has not had difficulties arise in her day to day existence? Why do think she in business in the first place, if not to provide for her own daily necessities? I'm sorry, but that part of your "defense" holds no water with me whatsoever.

3) You say that you did not place the tort in a warm bath until AFTER it had been under the heat lamp for several hours. I have to admit that I don't know that much about tort husbandry, but both of you now seem to agree that the heat lamps should have been used first. I have not seen where Rose ever agreed that a warm soak was then in order, but she specifically said that you should not have placed cold torts in a warm soak, or they would get sick.

Again, you say you did not do that, but how is Rose supposed to know this? You wrote, "Just recieved them, One is missing a front nail and they are all very very cold still, so were going to do some warm soaks and off to the vet for meds(they all seam to have resp. infections.)" You say absolutley nothing about using heat lamps first. You say that they were "very, very cold" and, because of that condition, you would "do some warm soaks."

Rose told you that this should NOT be done at all, or you would make the animals sick. You say you didn't, but again, given the way you appear to have already contradicted yourself on a number of points, how can Rose possibly believe that now?


4) Finally, You say that you cannot give Rose the information for which she has asked about the vet, because of various technical difficiencies. You have offered to mail the report to her, though. However, unless I am missing something, all Rose asked for was the contact information to your vet, then SHE would ask the vet what was done and in what condition the animals were seen.

Is it not possible for you to email her your vet's name and phone number? That seems very reasonable to me, especially since Rose has to know that vets tend to see sickness in any animal (that's how they get paid, after all), and they also tend to see things the way their client sees them.

All in all, Christina, I don't think you're owed a penny here. If Rose determines to give you a refund, in part or in whole, or if she offers you a credit or replacement, it will be solely from the goodness of her heart, and not because of some business ethic that I can see. She met her obligations to you when she offered you a refund on the animal. You said you didn't want to ship it back, so she was off the hook right there. However, she even went further by saying that if you could just get her in touch with your vet to confirm the animal was sick, she would still give you the full $45.00. You have neglected to follow through thus far.

I can see nothing else that Rose could now do for you beyond what she offered. You're on your own with those vet bills, in my opinion.


Rose,

I think that the mark of a "Good Guy/Gal" here on the BOI is how he/she deals with a problem once it arises. It is usually by sheer accident that one does not have any shipping problems over a long period of time, so it is only once the bottom has fallen out on a deal that I believe we can see the true character of an individual. I believe you have shown yours to be admirable.

However, I think you did make a mistake in your packaging practice on those torts. I do not believe that animals that are temp sensative like all herps (especially torts) are, should ever be shipped in uninsulated boxes. Either to keep the cold out or to keep the cool in, the insulated boxes are the ONLY way to go on shipping herps.

To utilize a second hand cricket box that is not only not insulated, but not even fully enclosed, for three young torts in early spring, in the the northern part of the country no less(!) ... well, I think that's just asking for trouble. You say that you have had no other problems? That's good, but it is not because the packing was adequate. You've just been lucky.

Even so, it's all a learning process. I think you need to change your packaging practices, but I cannot fault you at all for how you handled yourself, after the problem arose. You were very professional, and you ought to be commended for that.





P.S.

As I was writing this (I am terribly long-winded!), Christina posted again. She wrote:

"Facts: you shipped poorly YOUR site has a guarentee you refuse to obide by, in result of poor shipping 3 sulcata hatchlings got sick,2 are better 1 is in very very poor conditions. Those are the facts! no mud slinging no acting like children! I let you know within 5 min of recieving them they were sick. you have a guarentee and refuse to obide by it. BOTTOM LINE!"

However, the same person wrote about the same deal:

" . . .I just wanted to update you and let you know they came we are very excited and glad they arrived safely. We were just looking at your current stock on other animals and am looking forward to buying from you again in the very near future."

And

"The resp. infection is nothing, cold air and shipping is stressful on any animal and it has nothing to do with the shipper or the supplier. you guys did a great job on the packing and raising them thus far."

And

"Oh no, I wasnt suggesting you sent out sick animals. they are great, just got cold that will do it to any animal, or human for that matter. you guys did a great job. They will be fine, don't worry. you did nothing wrong."


I'm reminded of that old Game Show ... "Will the REAL Christina, please stand up?"

I just re-read that other link, and you clearly implied that you spent $300.00 on those torts, Christina. Why would you do that? Even with shipping, your cost appears to have come to only $170.00 ...

Why the extra bump? I have suspicions, but I am truly curious to know.

Whatever your reason was, it is one more example of you being less than completely honest about the situation. I'm sorry, but that type of behavior has its consequences in this community.

I have, for my adult life, owned a business.

Exotic Pets & Supplies (pet store-closed to do wholesale 1992-2000)
Exotic Pets-Wholesale (wholesale company 2000-current)
Italiano's Deli (deli-sold 2000-2003)
Rosie Mobile Kitchen (mobile lunch truck-sold 2000-2002)
Unique Home Care (just what it says-new 2004 (FL)

I have owned several homes and my children attend private school. Now on to better and more productive things. I have a nursing lisence and just started a home care business. I have worked for everything I have. (My mother died at 20 and my father is (retired) military.) I continue to run Exotic Pets-Wholesale (full time) and also run Unique Home Care (full time). Have I made mistakes, sure hasn't everyone. I have not put you down or flamed your name in any way nor have I LIED. I take offense to it, at this point. I feel as though I have done everything within my power to work with you regarding this (sad) situation. I will not allow you to make me out to be the BRAIN DEAD person. At this point, you have made yourself look foolish and BRAIN DEAD. When offered a refund you declined. I have moved on from you...I have customers waiting!

One upset customer...I think I'm doing pretty good for being BRAIN DEAD..

I understand totally where you are comming from.

But you do need to see it from my end. When I first told her(within 5 min of getting them) there was a problem she was so upset but offerd nothing other than returning them which i wasnt going to do for the sake of the tortosies. She was like histarical flipping out so upset that i would say they were sick. i felt that if i needed her help with this matter or another I would infact have to be polite. my wording was ment to calm her down i did not know how big the problem would be as our talking was mainly in the first hour after recieving them. I did not want her upset with me because after talking to her several times before recieving them she sounded so great. I wanted to keep it friendly and nice in case I would need her or just had any herp related questions.
And I was going to soak them yes because I read to, but after her suggestion i did not till later

I guess with everything that has happend in the last 14 days I was a little stressed to come home yesterday to a very very lethargic tortoise that my family has grown to love. he wouldnt even lift his head eyes swollen again just really really bad shape. I emailed her with my concerns and she replied blameing me. now if you were very stressed to begin with and someone tries to turn it around on you you would not be happy either. I guess I am more looking for an apology and hope her shipping methods change. I apologise to her for some of the things I have said but I am extreamly upset with the way things were handled on both ends. I tried to be polite and it didnt get anywhere.

And it isnt even the fact what I paid for him. its the fact that I spent so much time and money before recieving him and after(that whole weekend) building outside pens, and an inside tortoise table as well as so much more just making sure that he had everything he needed and since that weekend his health has gone down drasticly. so here I am trying to save him as well as thinking of buying another from elsewhere, and with everything going on Here I am trying to prove a point and everything gets turned around. the facts are layed out I paid in a timely mannor I wated till they were shipped and recieved them in a very poor manor. And not once has she even apologised or tried to accept blame at all. I guess I learned my lesson and I just will wash my hands of the whole situation.

Darin:

As far as the link I was making light of the situation by making a omment(just like the commercial 300 is how much I spent for torts that weekend not just hers total(I boght a few boxies)

I replied to her comment about that on page 4.

I have nothing to hide I just think I deserve an apology I am washing my hands of this mess and from there I learned my lesson. Hope she reads up on better was to ship. if it had something to do with the money or she was to busy to ship properly I could have waited or paid extra for proper shipping. It wasnt a big deal I just wish she can see her fault and not place blame on others.

when first told they were sick she quickly determined she could not even be at fault and quickly placed blame. not one time since did she take time to possibly check on the torts progress. not once did she do anything except want me to ship her the sick tort.

I paid 35.00 to have it shipped to me would have spent another 35.00 plus at leased 10.00 for propper materials just to get 45.00 cash back. not worth it if you ask me. thats why i didnt ship back i thought it could be handled as herps get resp infections all the time and heal nicely.

the point is her shipping caused this animal to get sick and she don't see that.

Darin:

it does not say I have to request refund or a replacement it says I have to let her know in 1 hour that there is a problem and i did. and a replacement or credit will be givin. my point of bringing this up is that she has a guarentee that the animal will be recieved healthy or your money/replacement will be sent

That the tortoise's I shipped you were the sickies?

You purchased a few boxes (of tortoises)....

I can't say this again...I offered you a refund, and still did as of today.

If that isn't telling you anything, then so be it.

You are buying and selling animals. Many people do that when they can get a "good deal" on things. That's not what I mad about. (I'm all for anyone and everyone making a living.) I'm mad because you THREATENED me and LIED. And continue to come up with more stories than I can keep track of. My morals are right on...I wanted to give you a refund...and make them (the toroises) better if they were sick.

I will not refund any money to you until I can verify the animals are or were sick. Statements from friends and family will not work. I will need the info for the vet you took them to.

"it does not say I have to request refund or a replacement it says I have to let her know in 1 hour that there is a problem and i did."

You're absolutely right, Christina, but you told her "not to worry about it," "it wasn't her fault," and she "did nothing wrong." You said that the torts were in capable hands, so there was no issue for Rose to worry about from then onward.

I think Rose was wrong in the way she packed those animals, and I told her early on that she might want to just send you $45.00 for the comfort factor of being beyond reproach on this deal. But, you can't tell someone they've done a great job, assure them that none of the difficulties were their fault, and that you will take care of it all from here ... then come back later and say she ought to share the responsibilities here.

I'm sorry you wrote the things you did, if you did not really believe that was the case, but it's too late now.

I see one problem on the seller's end of this, and that was shipping in a used cricket box that a 1,000 (or at least hundreds) of crickets have crapped in. Even if you shake it out, there must be lots of bacteria in that box. Then to not insulate it at all, and leave the screened side open without some sort of cardboard, at least, to block it off would be, in my opinion, truly negligent. Is that really how they shipped, with a screen covered hole in the side of the box, in March to Michigan from Pennsylvania? Please tell me I misunderstood on that one!

Yet the seller did offer the refund. The seller stood up to her side of the bargain by offering to refund the cost. Of course the seller did ask for vet contact info to obtain the diagnosis. This led me to see some problems on the buyer's end of this.

When I first told her(within 5 min of getting them) there was a problem she was so upset but offerd nothing other than returning them which i wasnt going to do for the sake of the tortosies. She was like histarical flipping out so upset that i would say they were sick.

Would you please post an email of the hysteria, or was this a telephone call. I see no hysteria in the emails posted by Rose, but maybe you have something different that she did not post.

Would you also please post the diagnosis here for all of us to see. That would be the original diagnosis of respiratory infection, made by the vet, right after you received the tortoises - not a few days later, not a week later, not a month later. Make sure that the diagnosis shows the cause of the infection, the pathogen that caused the disease - this would be shown, in my opinion, in any responsible vets diagnosis.

It has been well over a couple of weeks and no vet info has been posted. Were they really taken to a vet at all; or did the buyer try to work up a home remedy and cure them herself? If so, did that possibly lead to a worsening of the perceived problem?

Note I said perceived problem, because much of the buyers argument hinges on her perception of an alleged problem. Besides there being no vet report, there is no pic of the box - or did I miss that. The buyer did state somewhere that she would post pics. Has it been posted? Maybe it does not need to be because the seller seems to not be contesting the box's condition. Oh well, moving on...

The buyer certainly did say, in essence, that all was well including the packing of the torts, or am I really reading it wrong. How did it go from good packing to terrible packing. How did it go from it is not your fault to it is all your fault. How is it that the buyer claims the seller did not offer to alleviate the problem when that is exactly what the seller did, according to the purported copies of the emails in this thread.

I wonder if one of the problems may be found in the buyer's sign-on here on faunaclassifieds.com: ReptileResue. I wonder if this person felt she had to keep the tortoise and attempt a RESCUE herself. This is really what it sounds like to me. My guess is that had she immediately supplied the vet's diagnosis to the seller, then maybe the seller would have agreed - yes the tort is too sick to send back, so keep it and here is a refund too. Of course we will never know now, but instead of trying to think of a logical solution such as what I just suggested, the buyer attempts, in my opinion, a self initiated rescue and then takes them to the vet (if the vet thing is to be believed, after at least two weeks, with no proof of such supplied to the seller who requested such).

The whole claim seems to be Furgazy (anyone understand Furgazy and know where it comes from).

I think the seller probably did not ship properly. I think the tort may have gotten ill. I think the buyer may have worsened the tort's condition. I think the initial trip to the vet should be documented. I think the vet should be contacted to confirm such. I think the seller already offered a refund under reasonable conditions and is not required to give anything now, bit I also think that in good conscience, if that is really how the torts were shipped - man just give back $45 and have the buyer go away.

I also think it is rather curious that this keeps on going on with little evidence posted by the buyer; so the buyer ought to put something out there for all to see, especially the vets report.

Now I think I ought to shut up for a while...

All the best,

GB

I just reread my above post. I realize it could appear as if I have taken someone's side in this. Just to set this straight, I am not taking sides on this. I think there were errors on both sides. I would however like to see documentation before I completely lambaste the seller, otherwise I have to give the accused the benefit of the doubt as we do in our legal system. So if no documentation is provided, then I would withhold my further opinions on what I would have otherwise (after having received some proof or evidence) considered to be absolutely abhorrent shipping conditions that probably, in my opinion, led to the tort's illness. The thing is, it is so darned hard to come to the firm conclusion without some sort of evidence other than the buyer's word.

A few pics of the tort's suffering with the mucous coming out of their nostrils would be a start, as would the vet's report. I am of the opinion that if this is all documented, then the seller should suffer the consequences of her actions by having it all posted here for all to see. If however, the documentation is not provided, then I would think the buyer is full of something smelly, and should, instead of the seller, suffer the same type of consequences!

Signing off,
GB