Blocked gecko related website

Originally Posted by Jim O

Jerry,

I can safely say that Rich listens to all opinions whether they are from the "in crowd" or from a new member. That said, the opinion needs to be relevant.

To me, and I'd imagine at least a few others my opinion is relevant. Thanks for attempting to label it as meaningless though, it shows the twinge of antagonism behind your words that may be otherwise missed.

Originally Posted by Jim O

You have been a member of this site since 2004. The leopard gecko forum was pretty active in its heyday. Now it's part of the "Geckos" forum. There were two posts there today, three on the 27th, and before that the 25th. To say that it's an inactive forum would be stating the obvious.

Rich makes money from ads. Google adwords are paid on a per page impression or per click basis, primarily the latter. If no one is making new posts in a forum no one is going there and clicking on ads. Advertisers go where the page views are. Without looking I would guess that "the other site" has 500,000-1,000,000 page views per month if not more. Rich's gripe is that "the other site" has taken those page views, and hence related income from this site. Really and truly, the leopard gecko forum was the most active discussion forum here at Fauna outside of the BOI.

Yes, I remember the old leopard gecko forum. I think I even posted in it once or twice. I'm not a keeper of leopard geckos so I wasn't very active there. It suffered from the same thing every forum here except the BOI suffers from - lack of valuable content. I'm unsure why, as a glance through the posters in the BOI will show that many very educated keepers and breeders of all different types of exotics do come to this site on a regular basis. Most seem to confine themselves to the BOI. Maybe Fauna is trying to paint too broad a stroke.

I can't speak from an advertisers point of view, as I'm not one. I can see how pure numbers matter to them more than the content of what's behind those numbers. To me, it doesn't and I simply expressed that.

Originally Posted by Jim O

I'm not a gecko person and really have no dog in this fight, but I should disclose that I host "the other site" on my server and do help Kelli with some technical aspects of running "the other site". That came about long after "the other site" was established. I'll say here what I have said in the past. People go to the places with the best content. I read less than 0.1% of what is posted at "the other site" but I know that it is photo intensive and there is a lot of "ooo-ing" and "ahh-ing". Evidently that is what its members want. There is also lots of real content there. Perhaps actually reading it beyond looking at a few photos and then the classifieds will convince you of that, perhaps not. Either way, that site is successful because it has what readers want, and despite its shortcomings. No site is entitled to traffic or immune from competition. Lots of sites have tried to set up BOI type forums and none have succeeded to the extent that Fauna has succeeded. Similarly, I doubt that any gecko site is as successful as "the other site" is in that niche.

The fact you host and help admin the other site doesn't put you on either side of this "feud" IMO. You're just providing a service and not responsible for thoughts and opinions other than your own.

I have scoured that other site for content, otherwise I wouldn't have formed my opinion about it. I also agree that the type of content posted there must be what the users want, and I don't begrudge them that in any way. I'm just thankful that it isn't here. I'm not the only one who thinks that way either. Several of the smaller, species specific forums I subscribe to frown upon those types of posts. That's exactly why I'm active at them - the content is more to my liking. So to me, the fact that posts I label as non-productive or garbage are no longer being posted here is a silver lining in this mess.

Originally Posted by Jim O

I understand that Rich was hurt by Kelli and Marcia and some of the others. To me carrying grudges is emotional poison, and carrying grudges over childish behavior that is not indicative of a person's true character is a total waste. Kelli had every right to set up her site and compete. Competition is the capitalist way. Similarly, Bobby Hill, who has had some less than nice things to say about this site at times, and has set up a competing site with a competing forum (see http://www.tegutalk.com/forum/ and more specifcally http://www.tegutalk.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=42) loves to get into these discussions, but he's done the same thing. If he loved this site so much why is he competing?

Anyway, I'm done ranting too. If I get the boot so be it.

These last paragraphs are not really for me to comment on. But I will anyway

I don't think the competition is what set things off, but the clandestine way things were done. Combine this with with the constant digs from a certain person, and I can see why Rich has finally had enough. I'd have IP banned some of these folks many moons ago.

I know that from now on I will try to post more in the gecko, amphibian and insect forums here. Those are what I keep, and I feel confident in my ability to post 'valuable content' in them. I will also re-evaluate the forums I support monetarily and see if the funds would serve me better if spent here.

Originally Posted by Jim O

Jerry,

I can safely say that Rich listens to all opinions whether they are from the "in crowd" or from a new member. That said, the opinion needs to be relevant.

You have been a member of this site since 2004. The leopard gecko forum was pretty active in its heyday. Now it's part of the "Geckos" forum. There were two posts there today, three on the 27th, and before that the 25th. To say that it's an inactive forum would be stating the obvious.

Rich makes money from ads. Google adwords are paid on a per page impression or per click basis, primarily the latter. If no one is making new posts in a forum no one is going there and clicking on ads. Advertisers go where the page views are. Without looking I would guess that "the other site" has 500,000-1,000,000 page views per month if not more. Rich's gripe is that "the other site" has taken those page views, and hence related income from this site. Really and truly, the leopard gecko forum was the most active discussion forum here at Fauna outside of the BOI.

I'm not a gecko person and really have no dog in this fight, but I should disclose that I host "the other site" on my server and do help Kelli with some technical aspects of running "the other site". That came about long after "the other site" was established. I'll say here what I have said in the past. People go to the places with the best content. I read less than 0.1% of what is posted at "the other site" but I know that it is photo intensive and there is a lot of "ooo-ing" and "ahh-ing". Evidently that is what its members want. There is also lots of real content there. Perhaps actually reading it beyond looking at a few photos and then the classifieds will convince you of that, perhaps not. Either way, that site is successful because it has what readers want, and despite its shortcomings. No site is entitled to traffic or immune from competition. Lots of sites have tried to set up BOI type forums and none have succeeded to the extent that Fauna has succeeded. Similarly, I doubt that any gecko site is as successful as "the other site" is in that niche.

I understand that Rich was hurt by Kelli and Marcia and some of the others. To me carrying grudges is emotional poison, and carrying grudges over childish behavior that is not indicative of a person's true character is a total waste. Kelli had every right to set up her site and compete. Competition is the capitalist way. Similarly, Bobby Hill, who has had some less than nice things to say about this site at times, and has set up a competing site with a competing forum (see http://www.tegutalk.com/forum/ and more specifcally http://www.tegutalk.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=42) loves to get into these discussions, but he's done the same thing. If he loved this site so much why is he competing?

Anyway, I'm done ranting too. If I get the boot so be it.

Aren't you over simplifying a bit? From reading all the posts of the people involved, I think it's a bit more involved than just "competing" the way I see it. It's the way they went about competing.

To put it another way..if you found out that your best friend was trying to get into your wife's pants, would he still be welcome in your home? Would you still call him "friend?" Would you trust him around your wife anymore? It's not as simple as saying well, "I trust my wife." The fact is that your friend will have betrayed you by even attempting to seduce your wife.

On the other hand, if you were separated from your wife..it's a bit sticky..a divorce is immenient..well..in my opinion he can safely compete without betraying you if he speaks to you about his attraction and explains that he's always loved her but out of respect for you held off...I think it would be ok in that situation.

On the other hand..if he actively tried to belittle you, put you down to your wife and made you look less than your best in an attempt to seduce her from you..how would you feel about your friend then?

I don't think it is a "grudge." When someone betrays you on a certain level and proves that they didn't have your best interests at heart..it's time to make a clean break.

That's JUST my humble opinion.

p.s the way the post you wrote reads it seems as if you may be saying that Rich is angry and has a grudge over something as petty as the competition being successful, and nothing at all about how it came about is taken into account.

That was a well crafted point Deb.

Originally Posted by Critterfarm

To me, and I'd imagine at least a few others my opinion is relevant. Thanks for attempting to label it as meaningless though, it shows the twinge of antagonism behind your words that may be otherwise missed.

Not meant to be antagonistic, simply factual. After all, Rich said:

Had that site been launched without the obvious hate mongering towards this site, myself, and other active member here, going on within it, and without the obvious gutting of this site of members and advertisers in the process, I could not have cared less about it at all.

It's obvious what the issues are here. Membership and financial loss. I don't blame Rich, but it is what it is.

Originally Posted by Critterfarm

I can't speak from an advertisers point of view, as I'm not one. I can see how pure numbers matter to them more than the content of what's behind those numbers. To me, it doesn't and I simply expressed that.

Again, that's not what Rich has on his mind with his complaints, so again, the relevance thing. Again, not meant in a demeaning way.

Originally Posted by Critterfarm

The fact you host and help admin the other site doesn't put you on either side of this "feud" IMO. You're just providing a service and not responsible for thoughts and opinions other than your own.

Thank you for understanding that. I wanted to preempt anybody accusing me of bias because of that. I believe in full disclosure.

Originally Posted by Critterfarm

I have scoured that other site for content, otherwise I wouldn't have formed my opinion about it. I also agree that the type of content posted there must be what the users want, and I don't begrudge them that in any way. I'm just thankful that it isn't here. I'm not the only one who thinks that way either. Several of the smaller, species specific forums I subscribe to frown upon those types of posts. That's exactly why I'm active at them - the content is more to my liking. So to me, the fact that posts I label as non-productive or garbage are no longer being posted here is a silver lining in this mess.

I have a hard time imagining there is no useful content in the forums.


As an example, a person was incubating some eggs and recently asked

I have 2 eggs in the incubator right now that are 54 days old (inc at 85). One egg has stayed yellow all the way through so I'm assuming it hasn't grown (it was fertile) but since it hasn't molded I've left it.

The other egg was doing really well. I can see a mass in the egg and it candles pinky red. I'm sure I saw a baby move a few days ago but it may have been my imagination! But 2 days ago it started to dent on the side. By the time I got home from work, the top of it had also collapsed a little, like the air had come out. I hoped that meant it was about to hatch but I think it would have done by now.

Is it safe to say it didn't make it and to pip it?

Another question:

85 F + 45 days + candles pink = fertile?
I have one pair of eggs that candle pink, but I can't see any dark areas inside where a fetus might be. Should I just leave them alone and let them incubate longer, or should they be more opaque by now?

The shells are soft, like water balloons. I thought pink meant fertile, so I'm not sure what's going on.

My point is there are 600+ threads and >5000 posts on egg incubation alone. It's hard to imagine an open minded person would say there is no relevant content. And that's just one forum. In the crested gecko section someone recently asked about fertilizer for plants in the tank, and another about rehydrating a dehydrated animal. Perhaps such content is beneath you, but it isn't just "wut morf is dis?" type of stuff.

Originally Posted by Critterfarm

I don't think the competition is what set things off, but the clandestine way things were done. Combine this with with the constant digs from a certain person, and I can see why Rich has finally had enough. I'd have IP banned some of these folks many moons ago.

I think it was both. Either way, it was silly stuff that was said. To me it's like people who blame their parents for having a screwed up life. At some point you need to get over it and move on. At 35 can you still use that excuse? What about at 50? As long as Rich lets it eat at him, he gives the "perpetrators" power over his happiness. That's what I mean by emotional poison. Forgiveness is a gift to give, not to the person who harmed you but to yourself.

Originally Posted by Critterfarm

I know that from now on I will try to post more in the gecko, amphibian and insect forums here. Those are what I keep, and I feel confident in my ability to post 'valuable content' in them. I will also re-evaluate the forums I support monetarily and see if the funds would serve me better if spent here.

Best idea of this thread! Understand that it is expensive to maintain a site like this and financially supporting it is a way to keep it viable. I also put my money where my mouth is by having ads running here every day despite not getting all that many clicks. It was a decision that I made when my last paid membership ran out. I am actually spending more on an annualized basis than I would for a Benefactor membership. Now it would be nice if someone recognized that and bought hosting from me...



Deb, I shouldn't even dignify your question with an answer but here goes anyway. I am nearly 50 years old. A number of my friends have been my friends for 30+ years. None have ever made a play for any woman with whom I was keeping company. I have more sense than to associate with people like that. But on the off chance that it were to happen then the person would be out of my life and the episode would be over. Even if it was my own brother. I don't hold grudges. Waste of time and emotional energy. I move on, and that's what I would do, move on.

Rich can answer for himself, but it seems to me from what I have read that he has put the people out of his life and attempted to move on. It's other people that want to put negative lables on his actions. I don't get the impression from what he's doing that he's "holding a grudge."

He gives and has given fair warning on what behaviors he will and will not tolerate before he acts. He's even given several warnings where most of us think ONE is enough.

He has backpeddled and rethought and let these people back again and again...and YET..you think he's holding a grudge.

I just don't see it.

He might be..like I said, he can answer for himself. I just tried to put the elements of the story into a "Fable." Sometimes it works and people get the point..sometimes it doesn't.

Jim -
I've read enough of your posts to know that even though we've never met, I'd like ya. Want to get that right up front so neither you nor I get wrapped up in snide comments and bickering.

I don't like the way you said content may be "beneath" me. I think I know what you meant by it, but I want to say I don't think of myself as anything other than a middle aged fat guy in West Virginia who happens to keep some really interesting critters and took the time to learn as much as I can about them.

That being said, I'll back off of my no desirable content at the other gecko forum stance, and revise it to some desirable content, if you sniff it out. All in my opinion. Once again, I do feel that content I deem worthless has to be somewhere, as it has many admirers. I also think beginner type questions and answers are very good topics, and do not include them in my 'unwanted' list.

I guess I should have phrased things a bit better -
The other gecko forum has too much of what I call unproductive content to wade through scattered throughout the forums. I'm very glad those folks are happy with their leopard geckos, and accept the fact that they feel the need to converse with each other, even if I do not appreciate the way they go about it. However, it makes it a drag for a few folks, myself being one of them, to sift through all the inane babble when searching for some info. I think this could be an opportunity to promote the Fauna gecko forums as the place to look when searching out some answers, especially for the more advanced questions. A little fluff could be good, Ed Clarks big frog photo contest in the amphib' forums for example. I understand it is up to me and the other fauna users to make the gecko forums more popular, and as I said I plan to do just that.

Now buy a pair of geckos and help me, as soon as we're done shooting off at each other


Apologize in advance for any capitalization errors - stupid bluetooth keyboard and the right shift key seems to want to post commas when pressed.

Originally Posted by Jim O

Similarly, Bobby Hill, who has had some less than nice things to say about this site at times, and has set up a competing site with a competing forum (see http://www.tegutalk.com/forum/ and more specifcally http://www.tegutalk.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=42) loves to get into these discussions, but he's done the same thing. If he loved this site so much why is he competing?

Why, in your mind anyway, is it that anyone who is a member here and has a forum of their own, are doing so to compete with Rich?

I have had forums on my site off and on a couple of times over the years. Not once did Rich or Fauna even enter my mind when I decided to add forums.

And as far as Bobby's site specifically, his site is almost exclusively about tegus. Bobby is probably the biggest breeder of tegus in the country. Bobby having a forum about tegus is not only a good way to share information about tegus with potential and current customers, it is a smart business move.

Seems to me that you are just trying to stir the pot on this one, Jim.

Originally Posted by Jim O

Not meant to be antagonistic, simply factual. After all, Rich said:

It's obvious what the issues are here. Membership and financial loss. I don't blame Rich, but it is what it is.

Ah, but Jim, you are taking my words and forcing the definition to fit your own slanted interpretation, it seems. I don't believe what you are claiming is obvious to people at all, since even my own statement refutes your "obvious" interpretation. Please note the italicized portion of the quote you took of my words, whereby you highlighted the lesser of the reasons that were separated by that "and" word. The "and" is rather important in understanding what was meant, as is the position in relevance and importance concerning the ORDER of those two reasons separated by that "and" word. THAT is the factual part about what I said, how I said it, and what I meant by it. Nothing in that statement was arranged in context by accident or without forethought.

Actually I think some people reading the thread that was referenced via a link in the opening post of this thread will FULLY understand what I meant and why I said it that way. For those that don't then I suggest FULLY reading the thread and not skimming it, and then THINKING about the implications of what actually transpired.

Yeah, it may be tough to read through that entire thread, and tougher still to put all the pieces together yourself. But quite honestly, if you can't make the effort to do so, then I certainly am not about to take my time and effort to explain it to you. But I will give you a hint. Think of the "why"s of some of the curious facts that were brought up in that thread... I do believe some here have been tapping lightly on the head of that nail with their comments, so please use that as a guide.

I think most of you have seen MANY sites that would be considered as competition for this one advertising here not only in paid banner ads as well as various links in threads as well as within signature areas and such. Hell, I allowed Chris Johnson to advertise his forums here for quite a while, and personally I just couldn't stand the guy at all. For anyone to claim that it is "competition" that is the primary reason for my issues with the site this thread is about is clear evidence to me that they are just not really seeing (or understanding) the issue clearly. Again, a "why" should pop into your head. "Why" that one site and not any others?

As for holding a grudge, not really. I just REALLY don't care to help some people in any way, shape or form, with their goals. It doesn't really take a grudge to feel that way at all, does it? Seems to me that all it takes is a desire to be actively unhelpful towards anyone I care to be, for any reason at all that I want to. And I do believe I DO have that right here, don't I?

This thread would never even be here except I felt I wanted to explain why Marcia was banned from this site. Certainly I could have just banned her with no explanation, but as many have seen over the years, that's just not the way I like to do things. And I AM running this site the way I want it to be run.

Originally Posted by shrap

Why, in your mind anyway, is it that anyone who is a member here and has a forum of their own, are doing so to compete with Rich?

I have had forums on my site off and on a couple of times over the years. Not once did Rich or Fauna even enter my mind when I decided to add forums.

And as far as Bobby's site specifically, his site is almost exclusively about tegus. Bobby is probably the biggest breeder of tegus in the country. Bobby having a forum about tegus is not only a good way to share information about tegus with potential and current customers, it is a smart business move.

Seems to me that you are just trying to stir the pot on this one, Jim.

So his "Good guy and Bad guy Discussion Forum" at http://www.tegutalk.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=42, to which I specifically linked in my post, is not a direct attempt to copy the BOI? C'mon Sammy, I have way too much respect for you to think that you are not able see past your friendship with Bobby and note the obvious. Bobby used to support this site by posting in the Tegu forum regularly. His last post in that forum was nearly two months ago. No, I didn't say that he shouldn't have his own site or forum. Quite the opposite in fact. My point was that Bobby never misses an opportunity to jump on Kelli for it when he has had less than attractive things to say about this site at times and also has done virtually the same thing. After all, Kelli is a world renowned Leopard Gecko breeder, and has probably forgotten more herpetology than Bobby has ever known.

As for "almost exclusively about tegus" I would beg to differ. Some of the forums on his site, with thread and post counts:

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That's around 5700 posts not counting his BOI type forum, or between 20-25% of the site's total posts. If you eliminate the 8000 or so in the "general" forums at the top (like welcome, contests and games, and general non-reptile discussion) those represent almost one third of the posts and likely more in home page screen real estate. The tegu related forums number about 10,000 posts, so only about 75% more than the non-tegu related reptile posts. So it's not exactly "almost exclusively about tegus", at least not how I see the math. Again, re-read what I said. Bobby has every right to do what he has done, my problem is his criticism of others, specifically Kelli, for doing the same.

Rich, as I said, we have had this conversation before and we ought to agree to disagree. I know what you say and I know how I interpret and read between the lines. Your actions speak way louder to me than do your words. I'm happy to be wrong about it (wouldn't be the first time, won't be the last) but I don't think that I am.

Jerry, I'm a middle aged fat guy from (old) Virginia. Twice you said how there was no relevant content on "the other site". It took me less than two minutes to find and copy those posts. If my choice of words offended you I apologize. Perhaps I should have used the term "useless" or "of no interest". Either way, those threads that I quoted were not at all hard to find. They were at or near the very top of that section and required no wading at all. I would venture if you scroll down and look at the non-photo related sections you would see other relevant content.

Jim, I will say this, there are a bunch of my members that are now members here. If you look at my members list you will find they joined my site and then joined here. What does this mean? Well what it means is I sent them here.

As for me attacking Fauna, well if you think having a difference of opinion is an attack, then maybe you need to think again. I support this site as a paid member, I also support this site by sending my members here. I do not have a place on my site to bash Fauna, and I do have many posts pointing people to this site.