Prolapse at 3 months old Veiled

I got 27 babies (Veiled) hatched 3 months ago. Around 3 months of age, 4 of them developed prolapse. I went to the vet and the vet said is inherited (my whole clutch will be affected) and there are high possiblity that my breeding pair carry this prolapse gene. I was wondering if anyone got this problem before and can tell me if what the vet said is true. THANKS!

This is just my opinion, and I may not be right.

I bet he's partly right. It's likely that whatever's causing this has th epotential to affect all of them. BUT, I have never heard of there being a "prolapse gene". Often, people use genetics as an excuse for ignorance. IF they can't figure out the problem, they say genetics, and come out sounding as if they were not dumbfounded.

If it's happening to many of them, it's likely to be a husbandry issue.

I have seen prolapses in chameleons that were fed almost exclusivly silkworms and other soft bodied insects. The shells from insects help keep them "regular". IF they have a build up of fecal matter (which is often a result from overfeeding, or giving soft insects alone), they may strain themselves in the process of defacating, resulting in smooth muscle strains and prolapses.

What are you feeding, how often and in what quantity? Also, what supplements are they being given, and how much water are they getting?

Well this issue actually happen to the pet shop i sold my babies to. I ask them and they said they feed them 3x a day and they are saying that my chameleon have a genetic defect...oh my god....
For me i fed them only once a day about 5 pinhead cricket and some free roaming fruitflies (when they are younger) now they are fed 1/8' cricket aproximately 5 each day. Out of 20 chameleon i sold, all 4 prolapse came from the pet shop who feed them 3x a day. For myself, i mist the cage at lease 2x a day to keep the humidity around 70%. they were given rep-cal multivitamin and calcium once a week and twice a month when they are 3 months old. They were fed with wax worm and silkworm once a month.

I think they're feeding them too much. I've obtained veileds that were fed so much, they had 5 bowel movements in the first 2-3 days I had them. HUGE bowel movements. That could easily strain the smooth muscles in their cloacas.

I feed all my babies once a day, maybe two light feedings a day.

They have the problem - not you. If a vet says they have a genetic defect, I would question the vet. If a petstore is saying it, odds are they screwed up.

If they are treating the chameleons drastically different than you are, and if THEY are having problems that you're not, they are (most likely) doing something wrong.

Tell them to cut back on feedings to once a day. They should not have any more prolapses.

Thanks man..i will let them know about that...and maybe switch to another vet...

Chen,
While it is possible that the prolapse could be linked to a genetic defect. and possible to a dietary deficiency, I think too much has been read into trying to afix a causative agent, and then to change it. The data here is way too thin, and the specualtion I have read in the above posts is just that. Inherent in the above diagnosis is the conclusion that the juvenile chameleons are unable to adequately regulate their intake, such that they are now having "huge" bowel movements, staining their soft tissue, etc etc. It seems that you are now leaning towards reducing the availability of food as a possible remedy. In my extensive experience, I have never seen 4 prolapse in a clutch of juvies. I have "overfed" thousands of juvie chameleons, and never once seen anything remotely suggesting that availability of food was linked to prolapse. I would suggest trying to look to Mother Nature. There is no question that a wide variety of bugs is good, but not always possible in captivity. I have raised generations of chameleons exclusively on crickets (well gut-loaded) and never seen a prolapse outbreak. If there's a good bug season in the wild as juvies are hatching, and food is plentiful, are we to assume that its a bad thing and wild prolapses will result? Almost laughable ! My estimate is that colon prolapse occurs in less than 1% of all chameleons, when genetics are not indicated, as that has been my experience, and it seems more common in females than males. Genetics certainly explains the group occurance. So would a common bad husbandry issue capable of producing prolapse. But I have never seen one that was exclusice to causing prolapse, and in all honesty, I think it highly likely that such bad husbandry issues would manifest themselves in negative ways long before prolapse was the observable symptom. I would suggest that as being a better logic path than anything offered so far.

Eric, with regard to this passage:

They have the problem - not you. If a vet says they have a genetic defect, I would question the vet. If a petstore is saying it, odds are they screwed up.

If they are treating the chameleons drastically different than you are, and if THEY are having problems that you're not, they are (most likely) doing something wrong.

Tell them to cut back on feedings to once a day. They should not have any more prolapses.

The middle paragraph is logical, IMO, but applies more to issues where we already understand the causative links, as with bacterial infections, vitamin deficiencies, etc.

The first is fine if you are saying to ask questions of the vet. It is wrong if you are saying that the vet's opinion is to be discounted. A genetic deficiency is educated speculation, but it is also at the top of my list of suspects.

The last paragraph is pure folly. Chan, I realize no one else came along here and offered an opinion. But a consensus of one is not a consensus. Your vet sounds reasonable. Eric, your advice is full of just too many baseless assumptions, and seems as though you connected completely random dots to come up with a causative agent, diagnosis, and solution. There could be a non-genetic culprit, but "over-feeding" in and of itself, is not supported by the data. Frankly, its just bad advice. Sorry. If its an intake cause, I would look more at the hydration/supplementation regimen, accidental poisoning, etc. Its possible that somone in the petstore might have some belief and practice that we can't imagine.

Chan, of the seven not sold, what is (was) their status ?

Thanks Jim...your experience is greatly appreciable!!

No problem. And Eric, I wish I didn't have to take an opposing opinion to yours that was so glaring. But you had Chun changing his feeding regimen, and recommended looking for a different vet, based on the collision of limited info from a post combined with your own limited experience supplemented with significant assumption. That's a recipe for disaster. I don't know how many chameleon folks will read this, but if not for a lesson in colon prolapse frequency, how about looking at your own logic paths in diagnosing problems. If you are in too much of a hurry to find a diagnosis that you can act on, you are only increasing the likelihood that you will jump to one or more conclusions, and a wrong diagnosis. So now you not only have your original problem, but all the complications arising from your fixing things that weren't broken. In this case, just contributing to the demise of the non-prolapsed animals.

Well Jim, I understand what you're saying, and appreciate your opinion. I didn't have HIM change his feeding - he was not having any problems - it was the pet store that was having the prolapse issue. His feeding methods were apparantly fine, as he had no issues. The only animals with problems (and thus the ones that needed a change in feeding regime), were the ones at the pet store.

As far as changing his vet - that's why I was going to post today!

I said that I would question the vet. To clarify, I would ask the vet why he came to conclusion that it was genetic. If the vet has a resonable reason to belive genetics is the cause, fine. However, if the vet is just throwing out genetics as the cause, because he can't come up with a better answer... well, then that's different.

He's obviously not having issues with the animals he kept, so it is very likely a husbandry/nutritional issue with the pet store.

In babies, the only prolapses I've seen were in chameleons that were fed primarily silkworms and waxworms in massive quantities. They were two seperate instances with two different breeders. Since they were not my animals, I was unable to verify the other aspects of their husbandry. Many breeders feed their babies as much as they'll eat, and prolapses are not common for them. I suspect the problem this pet store has is a combination of both large quantities of food, and a nutritional problem. It is possible that they are becoming constipated, resulting in impactions, which lead to prolapses.

I believe contipation is more likely when animals are overfed. Since not everyone agrees that chameleons (especially young ones) can be overfed, then that opinion isn't going to be shared by all. I have seen plenty of evidence in my experience to support that opinion.

And Jim, no problem with posting a contrary opinion. I do not get offended when someone points out an ambiguoous statment, or an error, or simply disagrees. I'm not here to regurgitate things I read in a Divosjoli book, or stuff I heard from some guy that says he spoke to someone that knows something. I've been learing as I go, mostly by myself, and certainly do not know every aspect of every chameleon.

Everything I believe is either because I've seen it myself, or I believe the person who said they saw it. If I come across someone who has a differing opinion, and can back it up with facts and logic, I will incorperate that information into my overall chameleon knowedge. There are too many people who simply regurgitate the same ideas and "facts" over and over. Instead of welcoming other people's experience and differing opinions, they simply reject it as heresy.