Ball Python Breathing problem

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">but what he has described is R.I...Period!!!! </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Systemic infections, Pseudomonas, Aeromonas, some &nbsp;animals will show symptoms similar to URI when IBD is involved &nbsp;as early signs, any number of toxins, internal injuries, fluid in the lungs from alternate sources or injury, Or yes, most likely URI... However it is not definite, there are alternative causes for the symptoms, however unlikely.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Are you saying that he SHOULD NOT isolate the male?</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Actually, I specifically singled that out as the advice he SHOULD follow...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Since you think our diagnosis is unwarranted,,,what DO YOU &nbsp;think it is?</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

I think it is inappropriate to comment without the animal in front of you, people describe things differently depending on their experience and perception, you don't even have a picture of the fluids that are involved, you can not hear it breath or see the body position, it is likely but it is NOT definite that it is URI, however I would never make any determination without seeing the animal. Seeing the vet is a good idea, isolation is a good idea anyway, even if it wasn't &nbsp;displaying any symptoms... it is simply unacceptable to attempt to determine what an illness is without seeing the animal. &quot;Period!!!&quot;

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And just for the record,,,Seamus,,your comment about writing something 100 times??,,,I did not appreciate that at all...I am not sure of the type of people you are used to dealing with,,,but in the future,,,NEVER make a comment directed towards ME,,as if you were talking to a school kid!!!!! I am far from a child..Anyone on this board that knows me,,,can attest to the fact that i am being very polite in asking this of you...Save those comments for other people dude...</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

That was a very minor attempt to inject some humor into my post, it was slightly critical of your horribly negligent and inappropriate diagnosis of this animal that you have never seen or know anything about other than a half paragraph off &nbsp;this board and frankly it was intended to mitigate my comments to be less offensive...

Would you have preffered it if I called you a damn fool who has no vetrinary training making an enormously stupid and risky post talking out of your rectum about an animla that was not in front of you, potentially causing harm if the poster decides to take &nbsp;your advice over a vets? Because looking at it now, it certainly applies.

Take the &nbsp;rod out of your ass, admit it was wrong to state with such universal certainty that you knew what the problem was and don't even attempt to make veiled threats or try and impose restrictions on my abilities to post what was frankly a very reasonable comment on the situation.

Seamus,

Here is what I interpreted from Jeff's post.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">TAKE THE MALE TO A VET!!!!</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Here is my opinion on what Jeff said:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I agree with Jeff's recommendations. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

If you read again my reply the recommendations dealt not so much with the sick male (which IMHO has to be taken to the vet for an accurate diagnosis and treatment), but on how to protect the rest of the snakes.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">... put a 150 watt basking light on each tank on ONE SIDE of the tank, and put a large waterbowl on the other side.... leave the light ON for about 48 hours straight! Put a hide box in under the light.... </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Above are Neil suggestions. My interpretation: boost the snake's immune system by increasing the ambient temperature.

In my opinion you are a very versed individual and I enjoy your posts a lot. In this case though, I think Jeff didn't deserve being treated that way (particularly your last post).

Best regards,

Alvaro Daniel Garcia D.V.M.

Seamus,,,since you think you are all-knowlegable,,and you made a reference to I.B.D.,,which must be what you think it is,,since that was your first comment on your last post after quoting what i said about it being R.I.,,,,,the first signs of IBD is PUKING!!!!!!! I will not sit hear and argue with you,,,because i can just picture a 400 pound man(?) sitting behind a computer with watermelon juice running down his face,,,wanting to start trouble...Webslave,,,are you gonna let him sit here and make those comments??? Other people have been &quot;banned&quot; for saying things like that....This guy starts trouble on EVERY POST he replies on....Get rid of this pest,,please..

Okay guys, there is no need to argue. &nbsp;I value every response about the sick animals. &nbsp;I thought it was RI, but just want to hear about others' opinions. &nbsp;And, the ill animal is doing alittle better, less drooling. &nbsp;The females, on the other hand, are doing great, breathing fine, no drooling, and active at night. &nbsp;

I do have another question, should I contact the seller about this? &nbsp;This animal was free along the purchase, and the females are doing fine. &nbsp;So, I am not going to ask for $$ back(unless the females start to show the signs of being ill). &nbsp;Another thing, is it possible that the snake is already sick before shipped? &nbsp;Or as Neil stated, it probably happened due to insufficient heat during shipping? &nbsp; &nbsp; Thanks again for your advice. &nbsp;Chen

Come on you two.... calm down a little, this isn't the end of the world, ya know??
Jeff.... if you get right down to it, ALL OF US are correct! Seamus IS CORRECT because, obviously, we CAN'T see the snake first-hand, he's right to say that we really can't make a judgement call over the internet without even seeing it?? Ya gotta admit, he's got a point.... YOU were CORRECT when you said take it to the VET, but UNTIL THEN, this is the way you can HELP THE VET.... keep it warm, etc, etc...

Why don't you BOTH realize that this is NOT worth fighting over??? And PLEASE don't use that I*D word?? That's like yelling FIRE in a movie theater....

Why don't you two just kiss and make up.... you're BOTH really good people.... so, cut it out! OK???

....Neil

Seamus,
I do not think this was an &quot;online diagnosis&quot;, but an online suggestion. &nbsp;WOuld it not be fair to say that a URI is more likely than IBD? &nbsp;Would it not be fair to say that isolating the snake and warming it up a bit are ot the most common practice by any or all reptile keepers as a starting point? &nbsp;I like to gamble and I would be willing to bet that if this individual took the snake to a vet, the vet (aside from POSSIBLY giving meds) would recommed AT LEAST kicking up the heat for a week or so. &nbsp;I really do not know where you are coming from and why you would be opposed to these suggestions. &nbsp;How many forums have you beren to where this question is asked and these SAME responses were not given? &nbsp;Do you respond to all the other threads on this yopic with related answers in the same fashion? &nbsp;
Now, since you do not agree with their suggestions/answers, what would you suggest this individual do with his snake? &nbsp;
Just my opinion,
Brian Oakley

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">This animal was free along the purchase, and the females are doing fine. &nbsp;</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Aha! Added to the group just to sweeten the deal...No further questions...

Best regards.

I am not taking sides in any argument. I would just like to ad my 83 cents as to my understanding of what may cause such symptoms. I agree that it sounds like a respiratory infection but; I would also like to point out that there certainly are other maladies wherein a snake has a lot of mucous discharge (did someone say it was drooling - pleeeease get it to a vet), and whereby a snake will breathe through an open mouth. My understanding is that these other maladies include such things as: fluke infestations in the mouth, throat or in the respiratory system; other parasitic organisms that have infested the lungs, throat, mouth; substrate such as wood shavings caught in (or that have caused injury to) &nbsp;the back of the mouth, around the gums, in the throat, in parts of the respiratory system or in the esophagus (is that what you call it in a snake?); exposure to toxins in the air or water that have burned or otherwise irritated the mouth, throat, esophagus or respiratory system. I would be willing to bet there are other things too. I wonder if allergens could cause such symptoms in a serpent.

As far as Inclusion Body Disease goes, there are many varying signs that are the so called first signs, .usually. dependent &nbsp;upon what species is infected but this is not always the case from what I have read. One species such as a BP can show the preliminary signs that are usually exhibited as first signs of the disease by another species such as a Retic.

I do think the get ye to a vet advice was very sound, as I also think the advice about not diagnosing without seeing the animal was also very sound. (I am guilty of doing this now and then myself but feel it is not a very bad thing to do as long as you qualify your advice with the &quot;get ye to a vet&quot; statement.) All in all it has been a pretty interesting discussion.

Best regards to all,
Glenn
<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>

Regardless of the emails I have received, and the obvious argumentative nature of some of the messages in this thread, has anyone read what THIS forum is supposed to be limited to?

Does the title General Business Discussions ring a bell?? &nbsp;

Do you all just like to waste your time posting messages that are just going to be deleted anyway?

Do I have to create general husbandry discussion forums in the new conversion site for these types of discussions?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Seamus,,,since you think you are all-knowlegable</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Actually... I continually have been trying to say that I am NOT &quot;all-knowledgable&quot; but the exact opposite, as are you... There is uncertainty in the exact cause of the problem with this animal, reccomending anything other than isolation and a vet is inappropriate, especially when you detail &quot;what the vet will do&quot; when you are simply making an assumption based on circumstantial second hand evidence filtered through perception about the symptoms. It is simply inappropriate to make any assesment of the situation or propose anything other than a Vet visit with this limited information... It may be correct 99% of the time... But that one percent results in a dead animal and ticked off owner.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">you made a reference to I.B.D.,,which must be what you think it is,,since that was your first comment on your last post after quoting what i said about it being R.I.,,,,,the first signs of IBD is PUKING!!!!!!!</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

You asked what else could cause those &nbsp;symptoms, I listed a few, Glenn listed quite a few MORE... Nowhere did I say that's what I thought the problem was, in fact, as you seem to have difficulty understanding... I refuse to hazzard a guess as to what the root cause of the problem might be because it is unacceptable and negligent to do so without having seen the animal. Nice and bolded for you since you seem unable to read an entire post. Maybe I need more punctuation thrown in at random... What do multiple commas mean anyway?

Incidentally, an animal that hasn't eaten can't regurgitate... &nbsp;

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">i can just picture a 400 pound man(?) sitting behind a computer with watermelon juice running down his face,,,wanting to start trouble...</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Not that it matters in the least but... Outside of a few of the female posters, I may very well rank as the lightest registered user &nbsp;at 116 pounds and 5'7&quot;... I'm no seven foot tall 350 pound ex-navy seal commando who wants to meet anyone at shows for personal violence... certainly not fat either...

More to the point, I &nbsp;was attempting to divert potential trouble... I reccognized that you guys were trying to help, I reccognized &nbsp;and frankly agree that you're virtually assured of being right... But it is not 100% guaranteed and there is a principle involved, that would be why my original post on this thread specifically stated that I respected those who had already responded but was going to politely disagree with the action being taken and the potential &nbsp;diagnoses or treatment being given... Your response was... less than respectful of my views, I responded in turn... but I'm the one causing trouble?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Other people have been &quot;banned&quot; for saying things like that....This guy starts trouble on EVERY POST he replies on....Get rid of this pest,,please..</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Might I ask for a list of those posts where I started trouble?

Calling me a &quot;pest&quot; is fairly derogatory in and of itself and, while I may not have the name reccognition of others, I'm hardly petty or stupid... You may sell more herps than I do, but you won't win in a pissing contest if we start throwing information back and forth or challenging one another's competence and knowledge.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Does the title General Business Discussions ring a bell?? &nbsp;

Do you all just like to waste your time posting messages that are just going to be deleted anyway?
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Rich, I apologize for the deviation into specific husbandry practices that I have contributed to, I had intended to make something of a &nbsp;moral point about the dangerous and negligent aspects of reccomending information of this nature without having seen the specific animal, more of a post about some of the ethics involved in vetrinary advice or &nbsp;even the nature of information given to potential customers and other hobbiests but it degraded into the husbandry specifics when I was accused of not understanding the situation.

I understand your desire to halt this thread and return the board to topic, I also understand and acknowledge that this very post may not accomplish that end, I did feel &nbsp;a need to respond to some of the posts above that questioned my abilities, experience and understanding. I will save a &nbsp;copy of this text and either e-mail or PM the individuals I wished to &nbsp;respond to if you decide that deletion is the appropriate solution to this particular interaction.