Adenovirus Alert

I just noticed something, its not relevant to this thread really, unless you want to consider the overall character of someone. Does anyone remember that thread where Sunshine Dragons was claiming breeding since 1991 or in another mailing he said 1995? Did anyone else notice in the one letter to the University of I on the BOI thread on him, that he says they are just starting their 4th year?

I think he just answered part of the questions that other thread had on him and his false claims. It reminds me of another breeder on the BOI there is like 40 pages or so on, who claimed 15 years experience and it was really only 3. I remember him coming to the defense of that breeder too who was ripping off others for hundreds of dollars, not honoring her guarantee and changing it also when someone requested to return an ill dragon. Strange

Originally Posted by CheriS

Denise,

I have never known any breeder that tested adult breeders, got negative readings and later produced any positive babies. I do think under the right conditions the negatives are accurate The only time we have seen negative readingsthat later tested positive (so they were false Negatives) was when the virus was so newly passed to them or in babies under 3 weeks old.

That is NOT backed up by any researchers findings, but by more than one breeders outcome in testing.

I do agree that there are many unanswered questions about adenovirus, but that is also true about most virus, including human ones. Add to that the fact they have the ability to mutate over time, in fact their primary interest it to mutate and not kill the host, information does change. HIV they think has been around since the dawn of life on this planet, yet it was only in the last 30 years that it mutated and was able to enter humans, and it has mutated since entering the human population. The thing that has not changed in ANYONE we have talked to, it that selling infected babies is anything but unethical and when you are doing it knowingly and to other breeders or owners with other dragons.... that is not right.

Yes, there are many offline sources that will never see this, but info is getting out to vet groups. that does give them heads up in knowing what might be wrong with dragons when they come into their office or they can warn people that are thinking of adding more.

That's pretty much what my vet said too Cheri. She also pointed out that while there are false negatives because of new infection or improper handling of the test samples, that in most colonies and under the correct testing procedures, the chances of getting a false negative reading would be pretty rare. Knowing that makes testing for me, and testing though a lab I am really confident in, critical.
In the end, the more dragons that get tested, the better it will be for everyone. The more that get tested through labs like the one at the University of Illinois, the better the chances that there might eventually be funding for studies of Adenovirus. I'm hopeful that ethical breeders will do the right thing and start publishing this information and get their colonies tested. An informed beardie owner is actually good for this community, and just like most of us pass out caresheets and checklists for new owners, passing this information on as well is good for everyone.

There is another thing that Bruce's experts he keeps quoting is not right about, but them I not believe they are any experts quotes anyway, that is the statement

It has not been found YET in wild bearded dragons.

that is not accurate, the first ever recorded case of it found in a bearded dragon was in Australia, 1981 in a National Zoological Park in Australia and reported in 1982 in The New Zealand Veterinary Journal, Volume 30, Number 5, 1 May 1982, pp. 59-60(2)

Well I for one will not take any chances next year. Before breeding, my breeders will be tested. I only have a few and it wouldn't be that hard to do. And any new dragons coming in will be quarantined and tested before ever becoming part of the group.

I don't want to be one of those singin their sholda coulda woulda's sometime in the future. Better safe than sorry...........

A lot of breeders did not realize how inexpensive the test can be as most local vets do not offer it. They did not realize how this is in some lines of dragons or hear from other breeders the "everyone has it line". Which I do not agree with this, I was talking to a professor/researher last week about this and he was saying they thought it was, like IBD and other virus in some species since they see so many postive tests.

I pointed out that in the past, they were seeing only the highly suspected cases to begin with. Testing use to run $125-$200, people with healthy colonies and not seeing any problems or high death rates in offsprings were not testing... why would they? Here is a email I sent out to someone else that was concerned about the though that it is in the US population so strongly, which it is not,

I think you are reading far more into this than what is there, but I can see why you may think that..... I will try to explain, but your vet probably can also explain this as it happened a few years ago with ferrets and in the past with many other species and the labs all have high positive rates and will say something like this AND not explain the stats Please do not think I am talking down to you, I want to make sure this is clear so there is no misunderstanding

Lou Ann has ran about 130 test as of Monday, I do not know if you thought this was a much higher number or not. At that time she told Dr Jacobson that figure, she had a 70% positive rate, but remember at least half of those test are breeders that are known to you and me. who had dragons related to each other (Wendy's dragons and other DBN dragons like Sunshine). Another 30 some are from other people I know that have dragons that were related to ANOTHER breeders parent dragons that at positive (their babies that were sold) I do not know how many Sunshine sent off, but counting Wendy's, Estimating Sunshine's and counting the 30 from the other breeder,,,,,,, that easily makes more than half the test from them and WOULD have most likely been positive. She may have ran more test on Highly possible positive ones that came from Sunshine and Wendy so that percent of figure is higher now naturally. There are 2 more people I know that send in several samples each, one is all clear and the other had 3 come back positive of what they sent....... again, these were related to Wendy's, Sunshine or DBN beardies.. SO that probably accounts for almost all the test she has ran so far with a few other scattered here and they individually

Some people only sent in test for the DBN dragons of their offspring, some of those are positive, some are negative... but there was a HIGH probability that they would be positive already. I do also know that at least a dozen more people(breeders and individuals) have tested clear that had DBN, Sunshine and Wendy's dragons.

Most people or breeders are not or have not in the past sent in for testing with healthy animals when they are not losing babies or adults dying that are questionable why. It's like you do not have a biopsy done unless you are ill or there is reason to believe you may need one.......... so ALL labs that did tests in the past, are going to have high positive rates as the people coming to them have a problem already. I know one lab that 100% of their test they have done are positive.....but you need to listen to the rest of the stats as they only tested 78 dragons from one set of parents who are both dead and the necropsies showed positive for adeno. That does not make 100% of the dragons in the US positive, it only makes ALL the babies from one set of parents positive.

I know another lab that checked someone who had babies dying and found -0- out of 37 tested for adenovirus. The babies had an Acinetobacter baumannii bacteria that they had picked up from the breeder's son, he had just returned from Iraq. That also does not make -0-% of the dragons in the US negative. See the difference?

It does not cost that much, babies should not and do not have to be tested once any breeder has their adults tested and there is no chance of producing infected babies..... that is not that expensive or hard for most breeders to do.... most have under 12 breeders, many much less..... so a few hundred for test and then ALL babies are clear they produce, I know at least 2 dozen breeders that have clear colonies... all Wendy's adults are clear now, Mine are clear and I know many others are from NY, NJ, PA, NC, FL SC, GA, CA, LA, TX, AR, NM, MA, ME, MO, MI, OR, WA, UT and OK... it is NOT that common as most babies that get infected die young or it is diagnosed, never bred and reproduce, ones that do reach breeding age, often die from the breeding or egg laying due to that stress.

Originally Posted by Rebel Dragons

Well I for one will not take any chances next year. Before breeding, my breeders will be tested. I only have a few and it wouldn't be that hard to do. And any new dragons coming in will be quarantined and tested before ever becoming part of the group.

I don't want to be one of those singin their sholda coulda woulda's sometime in the future. Better safe than sorry...........

Thank You for testing did you get the results yet

If you could please post it as others have it would be a great help

I may have missed it

I was wondering when the big breeders say they do not test at this time for
Adenovirus in there Stock, breeders, babies etc..

WHERE do they get there breeders from? Other BIG Breeders

Are they sold to the public when they rotate out there stock .. refresh it?

What are they refreshing it from..

If inbreeding is being done, and designer dragons are being made does this mean now that all crosses from all the major breeders may be infected???

How many middle size and small size breeders many be infected

Oh one more question are they also inbreeding ya think

Originally Posted by walker75

Thank You for testing did you get the results yet

If you could please post it as others have it would be a great help

I may have missed it

We just got our results back on our 2nd round of testing. Every dragon we have is positive. Add my dragons to the other 90+% of the dragon population is that is positive.

It is WIDESPREAD and is EVERYWHERE!!!