Tail dropping and shipping?

Admittedly this is an issue that came to mind based on a recent BOI thread but I have been wondering more about the abstract.

Would people who sell animals that are more prone to tail dropping consider a dropped tail during shipping a health/quality issue of sufficient importance to be addressed with the buyer?

To narrow down the hypothetical... consider it a non-wholesale situation where the buyer picks the animal(s) they wish to purchase based on photos and lists of the individual animals that are actually going to be sent. They pay, the seller packages the animals in the same condition in which they were photographed.

Sometime during shipping, one or more of the animal(s) purchased drops it's tail. The box and packing materials are all intact, it appears to have been a stress related tail dropping as a result of the shipping.

Would a buyer be justified in asking for some form of compensation? Either return/replacement or some kind of partial refund based on the animal they received not being in identical condition to the one which was ordered and paid for?

I've got a few of my own opinions on the subject but am really curious to hear the viewpoints of some others- especially those who sell or keep species which are particularly prone to tail dropping- to see how closely my opinion lines up with the opinions of those who are more likely to have experienced that kind of scenario before.

Examples that have actually happened and how it was dealt with (without using names please, this is the GBD forum, not the BOI) would be great to hear about. Policies from people who deal with species that are particularly prone to the issue would be of interest to me. And of course the opinions of anyone else, although if you're in the same boat I am- mostly looking at it with the detached eye of someone who doesn't really keep a lot of geckos, lacertas or small agamids- please be clear about that too.

My skewed perspective made me think not of shipping stress, but of a tail dropped during packaging (which was just tossed into the container to provide some plausible deniability).

During the years of ordering for the pet shop, I don't think I ever received a lizard with the tail just sitting there in the package when I opened the box. (I did have a couple drop them in my hand when I was unpacking them, though)
I don't keep any lizards any more, so I'm looking at this from the same position as you are. If I was selecting the lizard, I would expect to receive it in the condition it was in when I purchased it. If I knew in advance that the species was THAT prone to tail dropping, I would have to decide how important an intact tail was to me prior to ordering. I, too, am interested in hearing from breeders of these critters to get a feel for their position on the matter.

I had stuck this in the GBD forum because it was more of a business policy topic than an animal care topic- and because there are some pretty diverse species that are prone to dropping their tails as a result of various stimulus; ranging from stress to some fairly minor contact under the right conditions.

I'm starting to think I should have just posted it straight to the gecko forums, as they're the most commonly kept group that's inclined towards that kind of tail dropping. 'cause it doesn't seem to be generating too many answers where it is here.

Originally Posted by hhmoore

My skewed perspective made me think not of shipping stress, but of a tail dropped during packaging (which was just tossed into the container to provide some plausible deniability).

Little paranoid but if someone has shown themselves to be less than decent to deal with to begin with, I guess it is a concern.

During the years of ordering for the pet shop, I don't think I ever received a lizard with the tail just sitting there in the package when I opened the box. (I did have a couple drop them in my hand when I was unpacking them, though)

I've seen a few that dropped the tail, I was also receiving them so I'm just guessing that it was during shipping rather than during packaging- but some of the species involved were extremely prone to tail dropping. Geckos mostly, especially a few species of day gecko- eyelid geckos not nearly as much. One or two lacertids as well.

And then some which were obviously packaging errors- a dropped tail that's caught in the edge of a tupperware lid.

I don't keep any lizards any more, so I'm looking at this from the same position as you are. If I was selecting the lizard, I would expect to receive it in the condition it was in when I purchased it. If I knew in advance that the species was THAT prone to tail dropping, I would have to decide how important an intact tail was to me prior to ordering. I, too, am interested in hearing from breeders of these critters to get a feel for their position on the matter.

I really don't keep many anymore either, a few bigger guys and then a feeder colony where a dropped tail really, really doesn't matter- and all of them that I do own have been with me for years. I haven't been ordering or selling larger numbers of them in about a decade and when I was, it was almost exclusively from wholesalers- price lists with nomenclature and a dollar amount ordered sight unseen via fax or phone. I knew I was buying mostly WC or mass produced animals when I did it and the prices were such that a dropped tail wasn't really something for me to make an issue over- on the rare times it happened.

Still really curious about the opinions of others though on the hypothetical (let's just pretend it's hypothetical) situation where individual animals were selected, rather than the wholesale situation. Breeders of species that are prone, keepers who buy species that are prone and anyone else too.

For myself... it really didn't bother me when I was ordering twenty dubia day geckos and one would show up tailless as long as the drop point was clean and didn't look infected upon arrival. A little TLC and they were just fine.

I think it probably would bother me if I had picked an individual animal or small group to keep as personal pets or breeders though. If I had purchased them with tails and they arrived tail-less then I'd probably be a bit unhappy and I'd certainly talk to the person who sold them to see if I could get some kind of compensation. It may or may not be enough of an issue for me to want to return them for a full refund (display enclosure animals I probably would, breeders I probably wouldn't) but I'd definitely be less than thrilled to see them arrive in a condition different from the condition I purchased them in. While tail dropping is also pretty minor on the scale of potential health issues, it IS something that is less healthy when it's fresh than an intact tail. That tissue is built to close up and heal up quickly but even a rapidly closing wound is a potentially higher risk infection point and regrowth requires additional nutrients.

The dealer's policies would matter of course, but I don't give money to anyone who refuses to cover carrier mishandling- so the seller would be, at a minimum, responsible for the condition of the animals upon arrival.

But Seamus, the point at which the lizard dropped its tail is so hard to prove. I have ordered what were supposed to be perfect lizards with non regenerated tails, and gotten one that clearly had a regenerated tail. I didn't make a big deal about it because everything else about the transaction was perfect, and since these animals were to be breeders, the aesthetics did not matter to me that much. I did have a slight pang of irritation at not being told, but it passed. But aside from that seller that has the tail break during packaging and does the dishonest thing and drops it in the box, how can a seller know whether or not the buyer took precautions when opening the package and didn't cause the drop straight out of the box?

I think that an honest seller would let the buyer know that the tail had dropped before shipping and let the buyer decide how much that matters. If you have a high color morph gecko (which I'm not into, but some are) and the animal is intended for breeding, then the tail won't matter. As to a tail drop that occurs in transit, a well packaged animal shouldn't stress that bad. I bought the most drop prone type of lizard of all, the glass lizard, from a horrible seller, and it did not drop any part of its tail in transit, and the pachaging was terrible! You know they can drop all or part.

Originally Posted by rosebud945

But Seamus, the point at which the lizard dropped its tail is so hard to prove.

Prove, I absolutely agree. The tissues there are designed to close and heal rapidly though, some eyeballing of the condition could likely provide a bit of a time frame. An educated guess rather than proof- but better than nothing.

how can a seller know whether or not the buyer took precautions when opening the package and didn't cause the drop straight out of the box?

That is an excellent question. The flipside to the dishonest seller would of course be the dishonest buyer.

And while it raises some doubts and introduces another variable element, that really only makes me even more curious about everyone's opinion on the matter. As a seller and as a buyer.

I think that an honest seller would let the buyer know that the tail had dropped before shipping and let the buyer decide how much that matters.

If it happened prior to packaging, absolutely.

It is possible (although, I acknowledge not as probable) that it could happen *during* transit though, so the seller packages them intact, the buyer receives them and reports the issue.

As to a tail drop that occurs in transit, a well packaged animal shouldn't stress that bad.

Packaging does matter, but so does the handling and treatment of the package while it's in the hands of a carrier. The packaging can be excellent- but a somersault down a chute could still be that one stimulus that just happens to prompt the animal to drop the tail.

Oh and... Harald, Donna, thank you. These are exactly the kings of opinions I was looking for, thanks for taking the time to help me sort of sort through my own thoughts on the matter and for offering your perspectives.

When I wrote up my TOS I brought up that issue. While it is not likely to happen via transit... it can.

I know of the thread you are talking about.... and its hard to say. What gets me is Ive had leos drop their tails on me before (in my shop) and it was in one large piece. Not in multiple sections like was discussed in that thread.

Looking at this issue from a seller's perspective, I think that a seller could, for the sake of good will, issue a partial refund if the animal was sold as flawless and the drop could have occurred in transit , but I don't think that a seller is necessarily obligated to issue a full refund unless the animal is returned, because the seller can still make up some loss by selling that animal as is for a reduced price. Tailless or not, the animal still has worth, right?

Can someone point me to that BOI thread? Who was the seller?

People offer live arrival and health guarantees. Basically then are people saying We guarantee live arrival but not necessarily whole?. In the case of that thread mentioned the container had flattened instead of crumpled paper towels therefore due to inept packaging. As one seller who ships regularly once said. It is the shipping companies job to get the package from point a to point b period. It is the sellers job to make sure the animal is packed properly to ensure the animals are able to withstand the ordeal of shipping.

People would either not buy an animal or buy it for less if they knew they were getting tailless. What is the point of pictures to sell an animal if it turns out not to be the same condition when it arrives as in the photo.

Digby Rigby balboa28279@mypacks.net