Brown recluse spider bite

I can't speak for any other portion of the country, but the Ozaeks of Missouri are right in the middle of that range map. As such, brown recluse spiders ("fiddle backs," as they're often called here) and black widdows are both very common species. It has been estimated by the Missouri Consevation Department that brown recluses inhabit as many as 90% of all southern Missouri homes!

I tell you what, there is nothing worse than having to go out to the wood pile as a kid and put those gloves on to carry in the wood! I was always convinced that a widdow would be in there waiting for me! Nothing worse, except having to clean out your closet, where it was almost a guaranteed certainty to find multiple recluse spiders throughout the house!

Not fun!

I am sure it is great not having to have cold, wind blowing, snowing winters of several feet of snow. But I have to say, i don't envy you when it comes to crawlies.....I would not like to have to worry about such 'nice' nasties.

I may be about ready to eat some humble pie on this issue... I e-mailed Dr. Breene and, after cringing the entire time in realizing that I misspelled his name several times in this thread, got a response back that he had some serious time restrictions, but would post when he had a few moments to do so... and that there were a few inaccuracies in what I wrote...

So I'll just be waiting in anticipatory silence on the issue in preperation for the "I told you so" that I quite likely deserve from everyone I disagreed with.

I only ask that you hold off on my chastising until after Dr Breene posts exactly what i was wrong about (besides his name, my apologies for that Sir, I intended no disrespect).

yes the range is a bit small making me wonder if the map is a bit old
having said that , I have found recluse spiders 1 hour south of Columbus Oh.
and as far as bites go I was bit twice and the wound looked nothing like that in the original post by RZ. I realize that some people might have a more severe reaction to the bite but mine was nothing like that. Quite possibly the person was bit on a vein or by one, and the venom traveled destroying tissue on the way??
There are a number of spiders that produce a wound similiar to a recluse, hobo spiders , purse spiders [ not the mygals found east of the Mississippi on tree trunks, the little gold ones in the corner ceiling of your house] to name a couple.
The is also more than one loxoceles in the US , two that come to mind are reclusa and laeta , and all loxeceles have a rough bite, some a bit worse than others.

As of this posting, I haven't heard anything further from Dr. Breene, although he did indicate that he was rather busy lately and didn't have the time avaliable to play around on the internet that he used to, hopefully when he has a few spare moments he'll post.

I'm a bit hesitant to say too much more on the subject after having been told there were some inaccuracies in my original posts but...

John raises an excellent point, there are literally hundreds of possible causes for necrotic wounds, most of which are far more likely than ANY spider envenomation. Allergic reactions to insect envenomations, certain bacteria, plant toxins, loads of potential reactions to chemicals... heck, lyme disease is more frequently verified to produce a necrotic effect than recluse envenomations is.

Misdiagnosed injuries are a substantial impediment to reliable information, it's a bit difficult to question MDs about their determinations because they are usually the most qualified individuals when dealing with physical problems but... arcahnidologists or toxinologists would be much more reliable sources.

I am a bit relieved to see that I'm not the only one who thinks the picture posted bears only superficial resemblance to a recluse envenomation though... What it DOES remind me of is mild crotalid envenomations and a few pictures I saw of an allergic reaction to hognose toxins (since the "rear fangs" in heterodon aren't hollow or grooved and the underdeveloped duvernoys glands don't empty out near them, technically hognoses don't inject the toxins present in their saliva and aren't venomous... there are toxins in the saliva which can pack much more of a whallop if they get into the tissue or bloodstream than most people belive though).

As mentioned in my original post, those photos were included in an email sent to me. I do not know the original source of the photos. Matter of fact, this was sent to me from Don Soderberg, and I believe he got it from his brother.

Matter of fact, when I first looked at that email, I looked at the photos in reverse order and thought it was some danged spam mail advertising some new miracle drug or something. I thought "Darn, that awful wound sure healed up nicely in just 10 days!!"

BTW, if anyone has some extra time on their hands and wants to try to follow this up and attempt to reach the source, here's the original header info in that email I received from Don:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wines, Bill W (N-Vanite)" <bill.w.wines@lmco.com>
To: "Billy Shipley" <bshipley@flash.net>; <bss51679@hotmail.com>; "doug
soderberg" <doug.soderberg@attbi.com>; "Duke, Dustin C"
<dustin.c.duke@lmco.com>; "Harrison, Greg" <greg.harrison@lmco.com>;
"Taylor, Scott D" <scott.d.taylor@lmco.com>; "Curtis, Steven"
<SCurtis@bellhelicopter.textron.com>; "Shirley, Kyle H"
<kyle.h.shirley@lmco.com>
Sent: Monday, June 09, 2003 1:49 PM
Subject: FW: Spider Bite

I have to admit that I am curious as to the outcome of this wound.

You know, I hear what you are saying about misdiagnosed bites, Seamus, and I have to confess, that if I were this guy and the doc told me, "Well gee, Rich, it's definitely NOT a brown recluse spider bite, but be don't know WHAT caused it." I would be just a bit perturbed. To think that something that could cause that kind of damage might be lurking around and I wouldn't have a clue what it was would unnerve me.

[quote]Originally posted by Seamus Haley
[b]There is the range map on the website I linked to that's still very accurate, the species is not naturally found outside of that area... there is always a minimal possibility of individual animals being sent someplace else in produce shipments or in a box of crickets or on a moving van or.

A bit more than that. The range maps we have are best guesses. Some of the 13 Loxosceles species known from North America (there are doubtless more) are apparently spreading as did the American and German cockroaches, both of those originally came from tropical Africa. The Mediterranean recluse (where it apparently came from), L. rufescens, has been found pretty much up and down the US eastern seaboard.
Some range maps can be accurate, but, especially with arthropods, they are simply reporting where they've been found so far.


>>. the chances against it are astronomical.>>

I tend to agree. Nearly all the bites I've seen over two decades have the typical archery target type marks, bands of red, yellow, black, blue more (may have 2 or 3 bands of different colors). I've never seen the area around the bite the way it is in the photo, but as Seemus says, at least scienitists can't rule it out. This "bite" could well be due to contact with a plant the person was highly sensitive to, who knows? The information about circumstances was scanty at best.


>Did you see the spider itself prior to the envenomation or just the injury?
If you did happen to see it, how many eyes did it have?
Did he happen to smash the spider against himself (or himself against the spider)?>>

Right questions to ask.

>>Recluse envenomations are misdiagnosed more often than they are properly diagnosed simply because of the somewhat foolish and inaccurate public "everyone knows" mentality about the nature of the bites and a bit of innocent ignorance about the basic physical construction of the spider... >>

Agreed.


>>The chelicerae (fangs) are fused in Loxoceles, the animal can't wiggle them around like a tarantula, they're essentially stuck in position, a position that doesn't allow them to strike at broad surfaces.>>

Don't let this fool you. Yes, the shelicerae are fused, they can only wiggle the fangs around and penetrate enough to get the job done, why does skin have to be deeply penetrated? It doesn't.


>>The necrotic effect of the venom is very much so a dry rot, it's not a big juicy fluid oozing mess, it's an evenly spreading area of fairly compact necrotic tissue with a narrow band of active rot.>

See above, and remember, only 1 in 10 people have severe reactions to the venom, the remainder heal up quite nicely by themselves with only a small scar involved.


>Recluse envenomations can be very easily treated by any competent doctor with a fairly simple nitro patch above the area of envenomation, halting the spread of the necrotic effect almost immediately and leaving only faint scarring>>

1 mg/hr patches work best, not a failure reported in 18 years that I know of.
But it's the MD that's the problem. The treatment has not, nor do I believe it ever will be scientifically documented. How can that be? You'd need humans, probably over 50, you'd need actual venom injections, and you'd need a control not getting the treatment. Anyone think that's going to happen?
So the MDs snub their noses, the severely affected suffer. It's one of those things in medicine that works but nobody can understand why, there's more of them in medicine than most MDs care to admit.


>Dr. Greene there, the one who wrote the very short piece in the third link above is online pretty frequently and is certainly a trustworthy source, right up there with Rick West (although for some reason I have gotten the impression that they don't get along or respect one another but I have no idea why I have that impression it's just a feeling)<<<

Don't worry, everybody automatically put a "g" on my name
<sigh!>. I've always doubted Rick liked me much, his problem, I don't mind. It may be because of a small education thing, I have a Ph.D. from the department of entomology in arachnology from Texas A&M University. He never went to college. Or maybe it's because he Canadian and doesn't like Texan/New Mexicans.
Neither here nor there.

Hope that helped a little.

RG Breene
AKA
sb

Thank you Seamus and everybody else for this post! Living in Tucson we didn't have the very bad recluse but the little browns we had scared me half to death.

After thinking I was bitten in my sleep I looked into it for at least a day and came up with all the same conclusions Seamus mentioned.

Made me feel better but not great. There seem to be a lot of people that "think" they got bitten and not that bites can't be bad but as was pointed out I think very few people do really get bitten by a recluse each year.

Anyway, just wanted to say thank for educating us Seamus, nice post!

There have been no substantiated and verified cases of humans being capable of having allergic reactions to spider venoms

It's my understanding you can't have an allergy to something you haven't been exposed to at least once.

With that said so few people get bit by one spoder but to get bitten twice would be very odd/rare.

I understand things can effect this like being bitten/stung by another insect with a venom closely related. Still thought it was note worthy.