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Old 07-09-2022, 11:02 AM   #11
JCCS
You don't seem to understand that there is no such thing as a "Lipstick". It's not a mutation where there is a definitive genetic boundary. You're just describing a nicer animal from that line. It simply doesn't work the way you seemingly want it to.
 
Old 07-09-2022, 11:06 AM   #12
JCCS
Also, I never said I haven't called anyone out. I called them out when they were misrepresenting an animal, especially intentionally. You're again not quite getting what I'm saying. I'm saying that if the animal is traceable back to Tom's Lipstick animals, they have the right to call them that. If they aren't traceable back to Tom, then by all means, call them out. You don't get to define what makes a lipstick a lipstick. There's a lot of Ferrari animals out there that don't really resemble the animals I produced back in the day, but that doesn't mean they aren't Ferraris, it just means the people weren't careful with their breedings and at that point, the name doesn't mean much.
 
Old 07-09-2022, 05:54 PM   #13
Socratic Monologue
So, for someone like me who doesn't know a Boa constrictor from a ball python (well, not that bad, but close), what is a Lipstick/Lipstick line/Lipstick curious/whatever?

Sincerely -- I have no idea, but wouldn't mind learning. It might be valuable to have an authoritative description, or a friendly discussion that leads to something like a collective agreement.
 
Old 07-09-2022, 06:22 PM   #14
allreptiles1966
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socratic Monologue View Post
So, for someone like me who doesn't know a Boa constrictor from a ball python (well, not that bad, but close), what is a Lipstick/Lipstick line/Lipstick curious/whatever?

Sincerely -- I have no idea, but wouldn't mind learning. It might be valuable to have an authoritative description, or a friendly discussion that leads to something like a collective agreement.

This is a clip that I agree with myself.

To be a Lipstick, it must be direct descendant of the original Lipstick Line AND be of exceptional “red” color.

Now that part is hard to track now a days, tracing back to Tom’s original boas. And notice the use of “ red “ not orange. As so many postings of lipsticks are.
With other pastels and other morphs producing some really nice reds, it probably comes down to the tracing back part to know 100% they are lipsticks.
I ask for that proof, but very few can prove it. There are a few breeders with lipsticks that came from Toms original stock. If you look on mm, there’s one breeder that’s been around for many years that has lipsticks. Traceable I believe. But you look at them and know they are most likely lipsticks. I won’t say the breeders name since I’m not sure if it’s like a boi style post. But he’s a big breeder. Another guy I know 100% sure he has lipsticks. He produces the reddest sun dragons. Amanda, Toms daughter told me he bought many of Toms lipsticks. Before and after Tom passed on


Another clip of someone else.

FYI: Uneducated or worse unscrupulous breeders can call any snake anything they want. I have seen boas sold as lipstick (and many other "lines") that had almost no red. This is a disservice to the hobby. I certainly hope your is a true Lipstick and very bright in color.

Thankfully, quality breeders (and educated buyers) will not be satisfied with calling a boa Lipstick unless it is of exceptional visual quality. Now that you are one of the educated, when you breed yours, look for those of exceptionally beautiful reds and proudly advertise them as Lipsticks.

Hope this helps some. Red red red. As Amanda said, it looks like they were painted with lipstick. And Toms line was born.
 
Old 07-09-2022, 08:23 PM   #15
JCCS
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socratic Monologue View Post
So, for someone like me who doesn't know a Boa constrictor from a ball python (well, not that bad, but close), what is a Lipstick/Lipstick line/Lipstick curious/whatever?

Sincerely -- I have no idea, but wouldn't mind learning. It might be valuable to have an authoritative description, or a friendly discussion that leads to something like a collective agreement.
I was around when Tom made them and spoke with him extensively about the animals when he first debuted them at Daytona. Lipsticks were a lineage specifically going around albinos and sunglow boas that Tom Burke developed that had an intense red/pink coloration. Rich is trying to combine a lineage with a trait, which just doesn't work. A trait is a general description of something, like a pastel boa, which has a selectively reduction of black. There are tons of lineages of pastel boas. A lineage is the specific bloodline that Tom developed. If they are of Lipstick lineage, they're lipsticks. They might not be high quality ones, but lipsticks they are.

What people aren't quite getting is it doesn't matter what name the animal is given, it's what the animal looks like. Someone rightfully calling their lower colored animals lipsticks does not detract the quality of animals you produce. It's why I love boas so much more than an animal like bp's. Even with the same mutation, there's a crazy amount of variation that can be introduced.
 
Old 07-09-2022, 09:15 PM   #16
Socratic Monologue
To clarify: I don't know what I'm talking about, and I have no horse in this race.

Searching the term 'lipstick' in the boa section on MM gets me all and only the the boas with the trait 'Kahl albino' (that's how they set their search tool to work). A little Googling suggests that some people think 'Lipsticks' are especially red Kahl albinos. Some think that a Kahl albino with "Bcc blood influence" is thereby a 'Lipstick Line'.

These are both different understandings than the two put forth so far here: that a Lipstick has to be a visually superior animal, or that a Lipstick has to descend from the animals bred by one specific person (as here).

Something I'll throw in that is clear regarding other species that I'm more familiar with: some people think that a specimen of 'X line' is a specimen that has all and only progenitors from line X. Other people think that a specimen can be called 'X line' if only some of its progenitors were from line X. This latter understanding can lead to some pretty watered down animals being called 'X line'.

Whether lineage needs to be pure (as, for example, I personally think 'locale specific' animals must be) or can wind its way down through only one parent (in the same way that I personally might claim to be "Czechoslovakian" simply in virtue of one of my grandparents having been born in Czechoslovakia) causes some disagreement in herp circles -- that might be part of what's going on here.

At any rate, it seems like there may not be one account of what it is to be 'Lipstick', and not even any agreement around the edges. When there is a term used with no clear definition -- an ambiguous word, with no clear criteria for judging which definition applies in which circumstances -- some folks (me, anyway) might consider the term close to meaningless.

This is all just me trying to understand the situation -- I'm totally not advocating anything, since as I said I don't have a clue. These discussions are really interesting to me, though.
 
Old 07-13-2022, 11:06 PM   #17
CFexotics
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socratic Monologue View Post

Searching the term 'lipstick' in the boa section on MM gets me all and only the the boas with the trait 'Kahl albino
The True lipsticks came from the Tom Burke Line bred Kahl Albino line animals.
The problem is People started to call any Albino a lipstick to charge more for them. And now the line is all but lost to be honest I know of only one breeder keeping the true Lipstick Line going.
Some breeders did have actual lipstick animals but once breed they listed all offspring Lipstick and they are all not it is a line trait like Pastel.
It is not a morph.
Hope that helps a bit
 

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