What constitutes "bona fide research and educational purposes?"

I've been wondering about this for a while now, and my searches here haven't turned anything up. I know the law for turtles under 4" is that they are for research and educational purposes, but what exactly does it take for that to apply? I was at a show/swap recently, and noticed that vendors selling baby turtles had a sign-up sheet that said, "I agree that turtles under 4" in length are for educational and research purposes." or something like that. There had to have been 30+ names signed on the sheet. Something makes me think that research scientists and biology professors don't go looking at a reptile swap for their specimens... especially 30 of them.

What I would like to know is whether or not anyone has had their claim for research/educational purposes denied. For example, if I'm studying chelonians in my biology class, is that a "bona fide" purpose? What if I'm writing a book about the captive care of leopard tortoises? Would that justify my possession of hatchling G. pardalis?

I know what the law states, and I know why it was enacted; I am just curious as to people's experiences with interpretations of the law. Thanks in advance.

Well Paul, This isn't going to help you much but I would say that research or educational purposes is something that 99% of the turtles under 4" are not sold for.

Steve

Originally Posted by sschind

Well Paul, This isn't going to help you much but I would say that research or educational purposes is something that 99% of the turtles under 4" are not sold for.

Steve

Steve, that's pretty much what I'm thinking, I guess I'm just curious as to how strictly this law is enforced. I know it seems that they keep pretty close tabs on pet stores (around here, anyway) but if I buy a baby sulcatta or something, do I need to live in fear of the authorities busting down my door and confiscating my entire collection? If they're worried about me getting salmonella from a <4" turtle, they should turn their attention back to the restaurant where I actually DID get salmonella poisoning from.

When I'm working with my animals, I'm honestly washing my hands AT LEAST every 1/2 hour... more often if I'm feeding. Even though I always wash my hands before eating ANYWHERE (seriously, I think I'm two steps away from being clinically OCD...) I have no control over the sanitation practices at restaurants. When I spoke with the health dept. after my near-death run in with salmonella poisoning last year, they told me that they don't investigate until they have MULTIPLE reports from the same establishment within a certain time-frame. That to me is absurd.

The 4" thing is bull. Any reptile (as far as I understand) can carry and transmit salmonella. Sure, the law was originally made to protect kids from putting baby turtles in their mouths or whatever, but I think a little education and PARENTAL SUPERVISION would yield much better results.



Sorry, I know I got off on a ranting tangent. It's just that if there's going to be such laws (especially against the reptile community... I know I'm biased) there should be clearer descriptions and regulated enforcement.

I'm going to bed.

My wife and I have commented on this at several of the shows we have done in the past. We would see some kids buying baby turtles from a vendor and make the comment "Geez! Scientists are getting younger every year, aren't they?"

Originally Posted by PaulSage

PARENTAL SUPERVISION

Is this a new movement that hasn't quite caught on yet.

Its a little better for me now that the tanning salon/nails place moved away from next door. Not many people drag their kids to a physical therapy session. Before I was beginning to think I might need a day care license.

Where did you see the notice with the signatures. The only swap I am familiar with in our area is Lee's and I have never seen a sign up sheet. Was it at the Madison one. I wouldn't know because I will never attend that show as a vendor or a customer.

Steve

P.S. Webslave, thanks for the spell check

Does "I want to see how long it takes my kid to kill the turtle" constitute "bona fide research and educational purposes"?

I sell turtles under 4" occasionally and I was told by PA FGW that its not required of me to prove who is or isnt a bona fide educator or scientist. I am required to keep all documentation on any person claiming to be an educator purchsing any turtle under 4" and I am required prior to purchase and at time of sale to inform the customer that turtles under 4" are for educational purposes only. I also ask that the customer agree in writing, by email if not in person, that they are purchasing a turtle under 4" for the sole purpose of education and that they are an educator.

I dont worry to much about Salmonella, it his brother Vinnymonella that worries me.

Originally Posted by PaulSage

When I spoke with the health dept. after my near-death run in with salmonella poisoning last year,

I apologize for making a joke of Salmonella in my previous post. I missed this part you posted completely and do not wish you to think your near-death experience is a joke to me.

I've had Salmonella poisoning and while I did not come anywhere near to actually dying......I would have welcomed death at the time. I rank that experience right up there with shingles.

Chuck, thanks much for the information.

Am I the only one who finds a little irony in the fact that educators are allowed to keep baby turtles? In kindergarten classrooms perhaps? Doesn't that put a class of 28 6-year-olds in the immediate vicinity of such a dangerous pathogen?!?

Okay, I'll bite... I have no idea what's behind the "Vinnymonella" joke...

Originally Posted by PaulSage

Chuck, thanks much for the information.

NP. I should also add that I received just about the same information from the NYS FGW as well.

Originally Posted by PaulSage

Doesn't that put a class of 28 6-year-olds in the immediate vicinity of such a dangerous pathogen?!?

It can, but thats assuming the children would be handling the turtle. Safe education can be achieved solely through observation and some careful handling by the educator. I cant think of any way a 6 year old student would be in immediate danger unless they were in actual contact with the turtle.