I think hybrids are great

Really I don't but i don't see a problem with them. I have been kicked out of chat rooms and had everybody leave for this view but when I ask why hybrids are so bad all I get is STUPID reasons like: Because, Don't you know anything, to keep bloodlines pure and so on. If someone cares to take the time to explain why all the crap over hybrids then do other wise I think I'm gonna start breeding them myself ... by the thousands. Sorry but I'm more than a little fustrated that so may smart people and no one has a for crap answer to this other than leave or remove me rather than even try to explain it.

Sorry for the typo's just venting ........

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...ghlight=Hybrid

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...ghlight=Hybrid

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...ghlight=Hybrid

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...ghlight=Hybrid

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...ghlight=Hybrid

Seamus thank you for the reply. I had done a search a while back, the last time this hybrid thing came up so had already read those posts. I reread them again and after untold pages of scientific jargon I have decided my "tag line" fits (not the sharpest tool in the shed). So far I have decided that "most" of the "purists" seem to be so hostile about the subject because they are frustrated that they can not stop or control the creation of mutts. I still do not understand why pure bloodlines are such a great thing. As I understand genetic diversity is a great thing and the more the better. I don't except the possibility of repopulating the wild. If thats the reasoning then save the wild to begin with or get behind some groups and merge funds to create a type of modern "ark" or something. For my purposes the reptile industry (not to be confused with reptile science) is about keeping animals that will be confined for their entire lives. As such it seems like propagating animals with greater strengths, more disease resistant and higher degree of health would be the largest concern verses keeping bloodlines pure. If pure bloodline animals are heartier and more disease resistant then thats a very good reason for them. I just am really confused and after reading all this scientific jargon I still have to say my position is unchanged. They are your animals if you bought them so breed them as you wish hybrids or pure. The thing I find incredible is every "purist" I have spoken with has gotten so hostile because I should know the reason why hybrids are bad and god forbid if I am to question it.

Bad Day Yesterday but its over ..... now today uggggg

Respectfully,
Stephen Kennedy

Rob still has my matches, so I guess I'm gonna have to reply politely.

A great degree of the hostility does arise from the fact that people are purists, the responses may not always be warranted, but there are a number of very valid reasons to support this position.

First off... hybrids are not, as a given, stronger in any tangible sense of the word. There are a few examples where hybrid offspring may be quicker to feed than one of the respective source species but this can't be mistaken for a general "stronger" There's no hard evidence to suggest that they are in any way more disease resistant when it comes to animals... Plant crosses are a different story, but plant pathenogens work in a very different way and tend to be far more species specific than animal pathenogens. In most cases, hybrids are actually far weaker than "pure" animals, partly due to the conflicting biology and partly due to the tendency to intensely line breed, compounded by muddied genetics to start. Without getting too technical and mumbo jumbo (sometimes people use the scientific terms to hide their inability to put it in plain english), when you breed animals that reproduce sexually, the genes from the parents are combined. Thing with crossing species is that the genes aren't always located in the same "place" for the same traits... So an animal might have multiplke and conflicting genes concerning one trait and be lacking in the genes that provide another. Not every trait is obvious and visible either; kidney function or lung capacity or antibody production are all controlled by those genetics. Crossing any two animals is somewhat hit or miss to start. Once those hybrids are created, with snakes anyway, they breed true... so "Jungle Corns" (corn x king) are now, more often than not bred from existing jungle corns rather than from the original species involved. Since this means a very small pool of initial offspring, from one or at most, a few sources are the basis for the entire population, it's a near impossibility to avoid inbreeding.

As a personal antecdote to explain the above, I have a friend who's been breeding some of the larger pythons for a good number of years. He's not Bob Clark but he has had very respectable success and he's the guy I go to with my questions... He tried to produce borneo bat eaters (Burm x Retics), following the notes made by those who had succeeded before to the letter, giving the entire project a great deal of time and engery and successfully got two separate clutches of eggs from two individual females. One egg hatched, the neonate had no eyes and died within a week from internal malformation in it's vital organs. The eggs were incubated in a converted fridge along with several "pure" clutches which had his usual rate of success (95%+ hatch rate) and no disfigurements or problems.

One of the other major concerns is behavioral and it comes in two basic parts. Part of the way a species is defined (pretty much THE way) is by the natural interbreeding of animals. If populations, even populations that appear to be different, interbreed regularly then they are a single species. Many of these animals that are being crossed never encounter one another in the wild, they evolved to meet different environments and their physiology and basic systems have adapted to the stimulus the respective species encounter. This includes behavioral instincts surrounding breeding. By forcing the copulation in captivity or "tricking" the animals into doing so, these instincts are circumvented. The behavior of the offspring is a major concern as well, some species are more inclined to dig than others or more inclined to be arboreal. All of these behavioral tendencies are the result of instinct, which is passed along as a genetic trait, by mixing the animals, there is a possibility that the offspring will have the physical capabilitites (and impediments) of one species but the instincts of the other. Can you imagine the damage that would occur if something with the facial structure and labial pits of a GTP or an ETB tried to burrow in the substrate? How about if something built like a blood python really tried to climb and perch on a branch? It sounds silly, but it's a legitimate concern.

One of the biggest problems though really does arise from the fact that many of the hybrid detractors are purists (I'm one and I'm proud of it), there's an ethical responsibility to maintain the animals in captivity in a state that closely mimics the state of wild populations. This is more than just environmental or dietary considerations, it's a genetic and biological consideration as well. EEver try to buy a pure diamond python in the U.S.? The only thing avaliable are subspecific intergrades, which is a sort of lessened hybridization. There's a direct effect on captive populations from these forced crossings which may, in the future, affect wild populations as well. Before countering that with "They'll never be let go" I ask you to consider two things... One, repopulation efforts happen constantly with many diverse species (although the fluffy cute ones get better press coverage). Two, there's some question about the populations of ectothermic species all over the world (see amphibians for example) and the future that's avaliable without human intervention.

It's also a major issue when it comes to the pet trade. Sure YOU might be nothing short of honest when representing the animals you have for sale but can you say that the person buying them from you will have the same ethics? How about the person buying the animals from them? How many generations out does it take before someone who's unscrupulous or ignorant misrepresents the animals and mucks up the general population? Breeding something into a bloodline is a lot easier than breeding something OUT of one... Take a look at ads for Jungle Corns, how many mention the fact the animals being old are hybrids? How about some of the other leusistic or albino populations of colubrids where the mutated genes were added from another species? A whole lotta albino rat snakes (Non corn rats) have corns in their genetic history because crossing them was much easier than locating an albino in the wild and then proving out the genetics. When a hybrid cross is first introduced, there's usually a lot of publicity of that fact then, two years later, nobody seems to take the time to mention it, assuming "everyone knows" when this simply isn't the case.

I believe Rich had a thread a while back discussing one of his corn bloodlines that he was pretty sure was contaminated by another, unidentified former Elaphe sp., this set back whatever breeding project he may have had in mind, potentially by YEARS until he can sort it out. He's a moral individual who properly represents everything he sells, how many others do you think would simply overlook the situation?

One of my personal gripes with people producing hybrids is that they make a halfhearted attempt to wrap their greed up in a thin veil of scientific curiosity. Then they have no stated objective, nothing they're trying to prove, no notes, no collection of evidence, no conclusions are drawn, no control is set up for their "experiment"... And the offspring are for sale.

Being able to do something and being right in doing something are vastly different issues; the morals are a choice that every individual needs to make for themselves but in cases like this, those choices have an impact on every other herper there is. Long and careful consideration needs to be given to the possibilities, even the less likely ones before a choice is made.

Check out this ad ...Then check out the questions I asked the seller about these "corns"...Nowhere in his ad does it state thes corns are hybrids...

If someone unknowledgable buys these "corns" and breeds them to a snow he now has "corns " that he can sell...Since he was not informed of the mother being a luecistic rat he has now contaminated the cornsnake line with bug-eyed rats...A few years down the road this could potentially damage the pure strains of corns...

Imagine the headache this could cause with Cornsnake genetics...


Gregg

Here's the main problem I have with hybrids . . .hybrid owners.

By that I mean that since hybrid owners see nothing wrong with crossing species and sub-species (duh! or they wouldn't BE hybrid owners!), they assume that no one else should have a problem with it, or if they understand that some do, they think it is too small a matter to concern themselves with. They breed as they want to do, and sell or give away the progeny they produce. At this level, I couldn't care less.

However, it is once it gets into the hands of the next generation of hobbists, petshops, or breeders that I worry about. Too many of them have no idea what it is that they are doing when it comes to breeding animals, especially ones that are as easy to breed as cornsnakes. So, if it looks like a corn to them, it's a corn, and there's no reason in the world not to breed it to the other "corns" in the shop and sell the babies as "corns" to everyone and his idiot cousin on KS.

You may say, "Well who cares?" Well, as much as you may dislike it when non-hybrid afficionados say that you're creating mutts and trying to pass their values on to you by way of force, can you not see that if people are polluting the bloodlines of corns with king or milk (and it is a pollution if you DON'T want it there, just like roses are weeds if you're TRYING to grow Dandelions!), that this practice is forcing THOSE values on to everyone else???

The fact of the matter is that there are already some issues with unwanted genes in the cornsnake world. Anerythrism is a gene that has become almost universal in corns, but it messes with several of the higher end mutations. So, for many, the animal that is NOT het for anery is more valuable than one that is het for the gene. That's tough (impossible) to tell without breeding trials, but look at much more difficult it would be to prove that your corns were not 1/16 cal king? Try proving that there is NO emoryi blood in your corns! In fact, I fear that there is much more emoryi out there than people would even begin to suspect!

Does any of that matter? Not at all, if you aren't looking for a pure cornsnake. But if you are, it matters immensely! And if a person wants a pure cornsnake, should he not be able to buy one? Or, should he have to suffer the fact that pure corns either don't exist or cannot be proven to be such, simply because non-corn people decided it would be cool to what they could get to breed with what? To me, THAT faction is the side which is forcing its views on everyone else.

All in all, though, if someone wants to breed hybrids, always advertises them as such, makes certain that they only sell them to responsible breeders and sellers, and never lets any outside of his "system," I have no problem with the practice. I've just never met anyone like that.

You recieve a standing oviation from me on that post...I was trying to think of a way to say that but it didn't matter how I thought about it it didn't sound right...

Thanks for expressing the opinon (I'm sure) of many cornsnake owners and others who dissagree with the hybrid thing...

Gregory I have to agree. Darin that was the first time I have really heard it put that way and I can understand that. I quess my next question would be can anyone stop the production of hybrids? How?
I don't have (that I know of) and don't plan on producing hybrids but I don't have the slightest idea how one would or could inhibit the production of them by individuals that desire to produce them.
I can say for me I have gotten an understanding in this thread of the problems with hybrids that I was totally lost on.

Thank You
Respectfully,

Originally posted by smart_ask
I quess my next question would be can anyone stop the production of hybrids? How?

I don't think it is possible to stop the production of hybrids...However, I believe that if people who do produce hybrids label them as such and market them as such that they would find out there is not a big market for hybrids...That in itself may stop the production...

Of course us "purists" out here may eventually get our point across and hybrids will eventually dissappear...Although, I believe the damage has already been done...

Thanks for the kind words, guys!

I have no idea how to stop the spread of the hybridization of cb animals. Maybe genetic mapping will eventually become cheap enough to identify pure corns from the hybrids conclusively, I don't know. Until then, the only thing I can tell you for certain is that my "Who will I buy from" list gets smaller and smaller all the time.