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Old 01-18-2022, 08:23 AM   #21
Socratic Monologue
Those are useful anecdotes, and it is good to be able to talk to someone who has such a long history in captive herp circles, sincerely.

With all due respect, though, I don't think I will be backing down on my own position much at all -- though I readily admit that claiming "they're all smuggled lineage" was somewhat hyperbolic; the universal quantifier is always a risky gamble (see what I did there?).

In regards to the AZA affiliated importer from England, I think we're on the same page about the (remote) possibility that there may be rugosa in private hands descended from such stock, and there is a (even more remote) possibility that lineage to the present could be established. Why there haven't been known sales of such animals from that time period to the present (as with other "zoo line" animals that I'm familiar with such as the very common San Antonio Zoo line T. micropholis) is a troubling question, though, and suggests that such lineage cannot be established, and that any claims of lineage are very likely to be fraudulent given the financial value of the animals. Aside from human nature, finding one of those animals in the current captive stock would be (statistically speaking) the needle in the haystack.

FWIW, there have been Federal permitting procedures in place for Australian exports back to at least 1982 -- the Wildlife Protection Act predated and was replaced by the EPBC Act. There were certainly state procedures in place before then, but they're hard to find.

I think the Tarpon Zoo mention undermines your position quite a bit, since Mr Tsalickis served about 20 years for his involvement with cocaine trafficking. To think the animals he sold were all or even mostly legal strains credulity to the point of absurdity.
Old 01-18-2022, 08:54 AM   #22
Beyond GenetiX
Alright this has been moved to the discussion forum, since the op was looking for information. Just keep things civil.
Old 01-18-2022, 11:33 AM   #23
"In regards to the AZA affiliated importer from England, I think we're on the same page about the (remote) possibility that there may be rugosa in private hands".
The point is the zoo system and their affiliates delt with these and I personally saw that SOME ended up in private hands. I do not know if they were confiscated, CB adults or LTC WC traded by an Australian Zoo.
This still happens in certain circles ( including Australian zoos) the general population knows nothing about and legal CB rugosa are being traded among these zoos and their affiliates and eventually to some private breeders. I say this only to make clear that it isn't "remote" for someone to have legal animals as these are mostly "closed" circles. The problem with many closed circles is eventually they fill up with desirable species and the overflow needs to go somewhere. Then we may see a private breeder or even a dealer with them.
Positing that a dealer from the 1960's having gone to prison for drug trafficking makes his importing equally illegal is not much of a case against legally required animals particularly since most of the laws pertain to importing/exporting from Australia, SA, Mexico, Europe, etc did not exist then. It wasn't until 1968-'73 that the permitting processes began being implemented. Also, TZ wasn't the only importer at that time. There was Bill Chase (who sold Chinese giant salamanders at the time) , Bern Levine of Pet Farm, Gators of Miami, Ray Singleton Imports in Tampa and Bill Thacker of Love for Sale (some name for a reptile dealer, huh?) from Gainsville just here in Florida.
Many individual people imported boxes into the US and we had "unboxing parties" because you never knew what would pop up (particularly exciting when a large cobra sprang out having escaped its bag!). It was like a Herpers Secret Santa event.
The parties ended, as they were, in the early '70 once the trade became more regulated and packing lists had to be accurate so nothing surprising was to be expected.
Old 03-18-2022, 11:43 AM   #24
Susan Besemer
There are breeders in Europe that have had producing colonies for over 30 years. Ancestors of animals that could be obtained legally before the ban. There are also breeders in the US who have been successful, but do not sell for obvious reasons. Not everyone is a criminal who owns one. They can be obtained legally, if you are willing to do the work and sacrifice a few mortgage payments.

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