To Jump or Not To Jump

Yeah, pastels are genetic for the most part. If you got that from an average pet shop, chances are it's a normal. But the fact that it is indistinguishable from a pastel without any additional info on it, means you've got a beauty on your hands.

Brian,

I'm quoting your quote. What I have seen so far is that yes, there is confusion within some of the boa breeders/sellers as with regards what costitutes a pastel. You will see pastels advertised all over the board just because they have a pinkish (most definitely cryptic, and that will dissapear as they mature) coloration as young. You will see this particularly with B.c. occidentalis being sold as "high pink" animals (although not labeled as pastels). This confusion is not such among the "brotherhood of the ball" as you chose to name them, where years of research and trial and error has determined the mode of inheritance of that trait. In my opinion these breeders deserve a lot of respect, regardless of how much they charge for their animals. They have put time, money, and effort in trying to understand more about the biology of the species. They have gone beyond the simple buying and selling because of phenotypic characteristics but have asked the question why?, and they have answered.

Regards.

Alvaro, right! Now, that they've done all that, they need to protect it. How? By not getting lazy and using the word pastel to describe the Genetically proven Pastel Jungle morph.

In the boa world "pastel" does not equal "Pastel Dream as produced by Jeff Ronne."

Why would "pastel" get special protection over here in ball python world? Everytime one of these guys uses that term, (pastel, by itself), they degrade all the work they've done. I understand that you and Tom and Al and Ralph and probably a 1000 other people who are really into balls know what each other mean when you say "pastel." But that leaves the other 6 billion of us open to make our own definition. Stick to "Pastel Jungle," and then most everyone will realize it's something special. Pick something more obscure like Mojave, and there won't be any confusion at all.

I think you are one of very few people that see the term pastel the way you do.

But that leaves the other 6 billion of us open to make our own definition.

Great, keep thinking that way and see how long it lasts.

The point is, these "morphs" yall keep throwing at me are great, some are recessive, some are what's called incomplete dominant (usually misnamed as co-dominate), but they are not common knowledge. And what I'm telling you is, if you keep using common, previously descriptive words like "pastel" to describe them you will continue to run into confusion.

Brian,

When you said a while ago "who the hell is Ralph Davis" I understood you did not know him and that you were not aware of the different ball python morphs out there. That would certainly explain your use of the term "Pastel" indistinctly from Pastel Jungle. With the statement above you seem to know more about these morphs and their inheritance than most of us do.

With regards to the other statement:

Now, that they've done all that, they need to protect it.

Protect it? Protect it from who?

Regards.

In my opinion:
pastel is an adjective - Pastel (or Jungle Pastel, Pastel Dream) is a proven line
piebald is an adjective - Piebald is a proven line
albinism is an adjective - Albino is a proven line
jungle is an adjective - Jungle is a proven line
motley is an adjective - Motley is a proven line

Your boa or ball python looks pastel doesn't mean it is a Pastel, Jungle Pastel, or Pastel Dream
Your boa has fine pattern doesn't mean it is a Fine Line
Your boa has weird pattern doesn't mean it is a Jungle
Your boa has motley looking doesn't mean it is a Motley

You must prove out if the gene is carried on to the offspring before you name it. Until then, you can just say that it has the pastel or motley or jungle look, but can't say that it's a Pastel, a Motley or a Jungle, a Fine Line, etc...

Using a known proven line name for your animal that you don't know if the genetic will be passed on the offspring is deceiving and ignorance
Telling everything is het for something without any proof is deceiving and ignorance
Telling that the buyer has to prove if an animal, which he bought as a het, is not a het is deceiving, ignorance, manipulated, and it is a good example of a not-responsible seller. Before the seller sells an animal as a het, he must be sure that the animal carries the gene of what he claimed the animal has.
Breeder spent time and money to prove out the genetic. Thus, they are entitle to set the price higher, just like an A.K.C. dog costs more than a same looking dog without paper.

Now, that they've done all that, they need to protect it.

They don't need to protect it, because it is regconized by the community in this hobby. Only "newbie" can't tell the different.

John, so according to your logic. Just because an animal shows a specific phenotype it cannot be called by that phenotype. Is that correct?

Your boa has fine pattern doesn't mean it is a Fine Line

an example of what you wrote.

Alvaro, you need to protect it from exactly what happened here. Someone, me in this case, not knowing that a simple adjective (pastel) was being utilized by a select group of people to describe a very finite set of snakes. The more descriptive and selective the words you use to represent these morphs, the lower the chance that happens. I understand that all of you know exactly what each other is talking about. But, do you really think everyone does?

Guys, I think we could beat each other up one side and down the other over this. And I'm really not trying to work against you. Here's what I'm going to do. I'm the Secretary of the Central FL Herpetological Society. At our next meeting, I'm going to take in about 80 note cards (we have about 80 members at each meeting), pass them out, and ask the membership to write down thier definition of "pastel ball python." You have my word, that I won't coach them in any way. I'll simply ask them to give me thier definition. I think that way we have a good cross-section of the herp community. Then I'll pick up the cards and post the results.

Only "newbie" can't tell the different.

John, it's the "newbies" that buy our snakes.

Now go stick a probe up your snake's ass!

Alvaro, you need to protect it from exactly what happened here. Someone, me in this case, not knowing that a simple adjective (pastel) was being utilized by a select group of people to describe a very finite set of snakes.

Brian,

You demonstrated that your genetic knowledge of these animals is probably greater than most of us have. You even enlightened us on the difference of the terms co-dominance and incomplete dominance. Furthermore, you are Secretary of the Florida Herpetological Society (congrats BTW!), an honor that is probably not given to a newbie in the herp community. But yet you have never heard of a "pastel" ball python. If you say there is no reason for me not to believe you.

Regards.