To Jump or Not To Jump

This is semi-business related, more BOI/Fauna conduct related but i wasn't sure where else to stick it, so here it is.

Jumping on fishy or questionable ads, when is it acceptable, when isn't it?

I think most of us have probably seen at least a few dzen threads where someone's reputation has been questioned by someone who was not considering a purchase but believed that there was a potential rip-off happening and decided to run a slightly biased inquirey rather than an outright bad guy post to gather more evidence.

Heck, there's two running currently on the BOI right now, one where it turned out that the questionable ad was an indication of an individual with a past history and a track record that pretty firmly places them in the rip-off category, one where it's looking like it was just a misworded/misread ad.

The responses to the people who brought them up were different, to a degree this is understandable as one of them outed another bad guy, the other cast a quickly dispelled dispersion on an individual (Although it won't have any substantial affect on the business)... One person thanked and touted for their vigilance, the other called out for harassment of innocents.

Semi-related are the discussions I've had with Al (RealVenom) about posts pointing out questionable use of terms related to non-genetic morphs... Yes it's wrong to fruadulently advertise something but if it's not stated that the pattern is genetic and they're just applying a fancy name and 1500% markup to normal ball pythons that happen to look funny... is it wrong to do so?

Basically... Should we be on the lookout for questionable ads and take chances that evidence will present itself once the subject is broached... or should we work under an assumption that someone is legitimate until they have proven themselves to be otherwise?

Obviously there is a huge expanse of gray area on this issue and every ad will be different... Some I have questioned myself in the past, others I have felt it that there wasn't valid evidence to attempt to call someone on it... But cramming the whole issue into black and white clear cut terms...

Jump on questionable ads and look for more imput?

-Or-

Leave ads alone unless from a known bad guy?

If someone wants to post an ad for a "Screamer, Sunblazin', Super Orange Bearded Dragon" and you look at the photo and it's just a normal dragon who cares. That's what the photo's are for so you can see what you actually get.

If you have an issue with an ad, email the seller and see if there is a reasonable explanation before you take it public and possibly taint a perfectly legitimate business.

If you have questions pertaining to an action that you may feel is borderline questionable then bring it to this forum (general discussion) and use generic terms to get feedback.

I see it as a disregard for BOI rules. It clearly states that BOI threads be of 3 types Good Guy, Bad Guy, or Inquiry, and should be stated as such in the thread topic. Weblsave has been very lenient in this and thats fine I have no problem with it. On the other hand, where will it stop. Threads about fishy ads are nothing more than that, fishing. these people may think they are doing us a favor and they may be, but that still doesn't change the fact that they are not using the BOI for what it was intended (IMO) I see ads every day that look fishy to me. I don't run them by the BOI. I see ads with very low prices on animals (if its too good to be true it probably is) should I post those as well, they are fishy to me.

It would be very easy to turn a "fishy" thread into an inquiry but people just don't seem to want to take the time to do it. Maybe it would indicate that they were actually more involved than they want to be. Example. you see an ad where someone is selling a het for piebald ball python. three weeks ago the same person was selling normal ball pythons like crazy.

Do you post an ad that states "so and so has a fishy ad on KS. they were selling normal balls three weeks ago now all of a sudden they are selling het for piebalds" To me it sounds like you are accusing them of misrepresenting the animals.

However, if you were to change the post a bit and say "so and so is advertising het for piebald ball pythons on KS. Has anyone dealt with him in the past, or know anything about him" That is what the BOI was intended for. Chance are someone else has seen the ad and knows exactly what you are talking about.

Of course a few things should be assumed. It should be assumed that you actually contacted the party in question. If you have a question about his product you should ask him first. second, assuming the guy is not an outed scammer. If Jesse Underhill or one of his alter egos were advertising a het for piebald it might be more acceptable to post a warning about it on the BOI. Of course I still think you should contact the person first.

Another thing, when I see an post about a fishy ad without any details, and without any indication that the originator had contacted the individual in question it raises some questions to me about his own integrity. To me it sounds like he may have an axe to grind. I am not saying this is the case with the two most recent threads, I haven't checked them again to see, just that I have seen them in the past)

One last thing. It brings up the question When do we bring attention to something like this? If you contact so and so and they can't tell you the breeder they got their hets from, and they do not have any documentation does that warant a "fishy ad" thread, or do you just leave it be and file it under your own personal "questionable people" file. I can't answer that but all I can say is that if you are going to make accusations (and I'm sorry but to me that is what a fishy ad thread is) you had better make sure your facts are accurate.

Steve Schindler

... Yes it's wrong to fruadulently advertise something but if it's not stated that the pattern is genetic and they're just applying a fancy name and 1500% markup to normal ball pythons that happen to look funny... is it wrong to do so?

Seamus,

As you say it's not black and white but there are a lot of gray areas. There is usually a relationship between price and quality. High quality items cost more to produce or are in low supply. It is thus human to assume than when something priced at $1,000 it is of better quality. Please bare with me that this is not always true (again nothing is black and white). The opposite tends to be true though, an item that's usually valued at $1,000 is suddenly offered at $100...chances are there is something wrong with it.

Back to the example of the snakes. If someone posts for sale a normal ball python import for $1,000 when he bought it for $30 he is creating expectations in some buyers. Why? Because they dream about the possibility of being able to breed such an animal and sell the offspring at a similar price. Here is where I find it wrong. The unsuspecting buyer (new to the trade) thinks that if he bought this incredible new morph for $1,000 from Mr. Fancy Webpage, he will in turn be able to sell it for the same amount. He will later find from friends or other breeders that is not the case, and that he has been lured into a dream.

Steve,

Sometime ago (before knowing of the BOI existence) I was badly scammed by a well known individual (luckily he is not around anymore). If I can avoid more people go through what I had and the amount of money lost, I will do so.

If you contact so and so and they can't tell you the breeder they got their hets from, and they do not have any documentation does that warant a "fishy ad" thread, or do you just leave it be and file it under your own personal "questionable people" file.

If someone has information that proves that this individual is trying to scam someone, I think it is important for him to post it. If someone just files it for his own personal benefit, he would be in fact covering that indiviual's wrongdoings. How would someone feel if after a while another individual posts they have been scammed by so and so while we had the info that could have avoided that but was never released?

Best regards.

How would someone feel if after a while another individual posts they have been scammed by so and so while we had the info that could have avoided that but was never released?

I think the above is the key question for many here. Do those who know better say something that may save those who don't some time and money and maybe ever heartache?

I have seen some really questionable adds of late, take for instance the het for piebald boa add that was so recently up on ks, but didn't say anything about it even though I was 99% sure it was pure BS. Is it my place to watch out for my fellow herpers? Should they have to take their chances and lumps as I did? Will they appreciate it if I say - hey watch out for these guys, something isn't right? These questions run through my mind when I see the adds like the one above from upstate theivery, er, exotics.

Is it better to have said something or not, purely a personal question, especially since on this board the entire cross section of the herping community is represented. There are the self proclaimed geniouses( hi Seamus) and the professionals, and the hobbiests. Then there are the newbies. What do you do with them? Just who's job is it, or is it even anybodies, to teach them?

I guess if your motives are altruistic, looking out for the other guy, then questioning anyone is OK. Afterall, if the questioned party is in fact a good guy, they'll come on and say so to everyones satisfaction with, I think, no harm done. And if they are in fact scammers or outright bad guys then the warning/question was timely and most likely appreciated.

On the other hand, how many of us are truly altruistic?

Unless the questioner is just some mean spirited buttwad with some sort of axe to grind I think I would rather see the questions than not.

Wes Pollock

I tend to jump way too quickly on leopard gecko ads, mainly because I have always felt a social stigma being a leopard gecko owner versus certain public herp chatrooms and I feel the need to stand up for an animal and its hobbyists that most herpers seem to scoff at.

Although I didn't bother to jump on a certain individual selling $30 animals for $550lowest bid, simply because I HOPE people can see through that.

I jumped on another ad, and this is one of the cases Seamus is discussing, because I couldn't find information on the seller in either direction and did feel that the sale was not an ethical one- shipping (some or all) gravid females and most likely new hatchlings, while stating that the females were ready to breed and make the buyer's money back.

Should I have brought it up outside of the BOI? Maybe.
Should I have worded it differently? yes, I allowed my feelings about the ethics of the issue jade how i viewed the ad.
Should I have been jumped on for asking?

Back to the example of the snakes. If someone posts for sale a normal ball python import for $1,000 when he bought it for $30 he is creating expectations in some buyers. Why? Because they dream about the possibility of being able to breed such an animal and sell the offspring at a similar price. Here is where I find it wrong. The unsuspecting buyer (new to the trade) thinks that if he bought this incredible new morph for $1,000 from Mr. Fancy Webpage, he will in turn be able to sell it for the same amount. He will later find from friends or other breeders that is not the case, and that he has been lured into a dream.

If you spend $1,000 on an investment without doing some basic research your asking to be done wrong. There needs to be some basic common sense utilized by a buyer. I can't believe how many people see this trade as a no-knowledge low entry industry and don't do their homework.

If you spend $1,000 on an investment without doing some basic research your asking to be done wrong. There needs to be some basic common sense utilized by a buyer. I can't believe how many people see this trade as a no-knowledge low entry industry and don't do their homework.

Daniel,

I understand your point and yes, if you are going to get into a certain market you better do a little research before doing so. That's on the side of the buyer. On the side of the seller though IMO it is unethical to overprice an animal with the expectancy that some unaware, uninformed or misinformed individual will be tricked into believing he is buying something special. Maybe I'm wrong but it's just an opinion.

Regards.

You know what, I just spent 45 minutes responding to several posts, I finally figured out how to work the quote thingy, and I really wanted to respond directly to some of the comments, BUT (and you will probably all be happy about this) I did the preview reply thing, found something I wanted to change and when I went back everything was gone. This is just one reason why I think this would be a better world if computers had never been invented. I know my blood pressure just shot up about 50 points.

I'll sum up my coments to this:

If you have evidence that a particular ad is not truly representing an animal correctly, or you have knowledge about the person posting the ad that might prevent others from being ripped off, then by all means go ahead and post. If all you have is a gut feeling, or a hunch that something is not right it is probably best kept to yourself.

If I feel like spending more time later on I might come back and make the individual responses (consider yourselves warned)


Steve Schindler

I think it is VERY DANGEROUS to try and determine morphs period. Sure albino and piebald and some others are easy. But try and define "pastel," "hypo," "hyper," "okeetee," or "creamsicle" and you're in for a lot a problems. I just hand picked about 35 baby balls, and several of them are what I will sell as "pastel." To me pastel is just a term used to describe a high contrast ball with lighter than normal coloring. To some people, pastel must come with a $10,000 price tag and a receipt from some "big-time" breeder.

I sold a w.c. nonfeeding "pastel wanna-be" last weekend at the Raleigh show for $125 to another vendor who scooped it up before the show even started. So obviously, "pastel" has many different definitions and many different levels of people who are interested in them. Hypo is another favorite of mine. Most of the people posting here saw the thread concerning Greg Riso and Todd Smith. I expressed an opinion about the boa in question, stating that I didn't believe that boa was a "hypo." Several people disagreed with me. So there are no definite answers to these questions.

Genetics is another story, but it's not much better. One can never prove an animal in not a het. Reguardless of what we all would like to think "hets" will not hold up in court. Why? Because, it is totally possible to breed a het with a recessive animal and get wild type offspring. The only thing one can do is prove the animal is actually a het, when it produces the recessive offspring.