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Old 05-04-2003, 12:16 AM   #1
Boavoyage
Question Wrong Sexed - Opinion Needed

Recently, I found out a female Peruvian that I bought in December last year turned out to be a male after popping (hermipeses showed). Also, a female 100% het albino that I bought in September last year also turned out to be a male (ball python had sexed by two different people with the same result). The Peruvian hasn't grown much. However, the ball python has grown from 250 grams to 800 grams (I bought supposed to be 1.2 and both of the males are 800 grams now, and the female is 1000 grams). I would like to know how would you handle this matter with the seller. Any input is greatly appreciated
 
Old 05-04-2003, 01:20 AM   #2
The BoidSmith
John,

In my opinion it has to be refund or replacement for the right sex. If it's the second option it should be for an animal of similar size as you have invested a lot of time an effort in bringing these females up to where they are now.

Regards.
 
Old 05-04-2003, 01:13 PM   #3
Boavoyage
Thanks Alvaro for your input.

In regard of refund for the 100% het albino ball python, how much should be refund. Let say I spent $200.00 for a male het ball python and $500.00 for a supposed to be female het ball python last September (both are at 250 grams range). Now the female turned out to be male, if it's a refund, how much should be the refund? Because I figured a 800 grams male het for albino would be approx. $500.00 market value now, and a 800 grams female het for albino would be $1000.00 market value now. I was thinking about 2 options:
1) Refund the different market value for the python at the current weight, and I keep the male, which was supposed to be female.
2) Replace a het female at approx. 800 to 1000 grams for the supposed to be female het (since my other female bought at the same time from the same person has grown to 1000 grams in the same condition)

In regard of refund for the Peruvian, I thought of these options:
1) I will ship him back at the seller expense for a refund of the original purchase price plus the feeding cost I have spent from time of purchase.
2) Seller replaces a female at the same size and quality (if not better), and seller pays for all shipping cost involved.
3) Seller refunds the different in market price between a 5 feet male and female Peruvian. I still haven't figured out the different in market price for Peruvian, because it is based on not just size, but quality of the boa.

I also want to clear up just in case someone asks why didn't I sex them by that time, but now? I don't know how to sex snake. I kept them as hobby, and took seller's word for their sex. When I need to sex them, usually before I sell or trade them just to make sure the snake is proper represented, I either take them to a local pet stores, Prehistoric Pets or Reptile Haven, or a local friend here whom know how to sex. I was going to trade the Peruvian, and for the ball python, since I saw one female was grown bigger than the other, and the other female was at the same weight of the male, so I was doubt. Again, any input for this matter is greatly appreciate.
 
Old 05-04-2003, 01:46 PM   #4
The BoidSmith
Quote:
Because I figured a 800 grams male het for albino would be approx. $500.00 market value now, and a 800 grams female het for albino would be $1000.00 market value now.
John,

I think you are right on the money with your calculations and expectancies for $$$. Nevertheless it's going to be difficult to get that kind of money being refunded, particulalry with a market that is currently so slow.

With option one you are asking the seller to be out of the snake and out of more money. It's fair, you can try it, but it's going to be tough.

Option 2 seems to be more "realistic" and it will give the seller the option of not being at a complete monetary loss.

Again option two seems to have the greatest chance to end succesfully.

Quote:
I also want to clear up just in case someone asks why didn't I sex them by that time, but now? I don't know how to sex snake. I kept them as hobby, and took seller's word for their sex.
In my opinion that's beyond discussion and not your responsibility. You bought a female. You are not supposed to verify that. Let me put it this way. If you buy a "healthy" snake, are you supposed to take it to the vet to verify that too?

A question on the side. Which prehistoric pets are you close by? The one that advertises in kingsnake.com.

Regards.
 
Old 05-04-2003, 04:46 PM   #5
Boavoyage
Thanks again Alvaro for your input.

In regard of your question, I live 45 minutes drive from either Prehistoric Pets in Chino (a.k.a. Reptile Guru) or Prehistoric Pets in Fountain Valley (posted on Kingsnake). I live 1 hour 30 minutes drive from Reptile Haven and LLL Reptile in Oceanside. However, only Prehistoric Pets in Fountain Valley and Reptile Haven are the only places I know that willing to help me or other customers to sex snake or answer questions. I tried LLL at one time, but they say they only sex snake that buy from their store. I haven't tried the Prehistoric Pets in Chino, although I have been to their store once.
 
Old 05-05-2003, 12:23 AM   #6
Clay Davenport
I have to say I have some reservations about some of the options put forth here.
The seller has obviously made a mistake in both cases, and something should be done if possible to rectify it, but what lengths are to be reasonably expected?

First the time frame is pretty long. Errors in sexing are an unfortunate, but all too common occurance these days. In my opinion you should verify the sex of animals you buy, mainly to avoid such long terms in discovering the problem. It isn't like verifying the health of a snake, the health can change in 8 months, but the sex cannot.
Whether you verify it upon receipt or 6 months later doesn't change the fact that the seller made a mistake, but the length of time it took you to discover the problem factors into some of the options you are suggesting.

Concerning the ball,
Quote:
1) Refund the different market value for the python at the current weight, and I keep the male, which was supposed to be female.
2) Replace a het female at approx. 800 to 1000 grams for the supposed to be female het (since my other female bought at the same time from the same person has grown to 1000 grams in the same condition)
Option one is affected by the length of time involved. Frankly I can't see this one happening at all.
Option 2 is the best case senario, and to me it would either be this one or a refund of the original purchase price.

On the boa
Quote:
1) I will ship him back at the seller expense for a refund of the original purchase price plus the feeding cost I have spent from time of purchase.
2) Seller replaces a female at the same size and quality (if not better), and seller pays for all shipping cost involved.
3) Seller refunds the different in market price between a 5 feet male and female Peruvian. I still haven't figured out the different in market price for Peruvian, because it is based on not just size, but quality of the boa.
Again option one isn't going to happen. Feeding costs just cannot be considered in a refund. They increased with the length of time you have had the snake, and you cannot expect to punish the seller for that. Had the snake been the correct sex, you would have had the same investment in food anyway.
Option 2 is realistic, if the seller has an acceptable female.
Option 3 would be difficult because individual opinions of market value are significantly different.
Again replacement or refund of the original purchase price plus shipping fees are the only things to be reasonably expected.

While the mistake was at the hands of the seller, this is without question, at some point the buyer has to assume a degree of responsibility. This will involve the realization that feeding costs are not going to be refunded, and growth of the animal is another consequence of taking so long to report the problem.

As an example, my son bought his first snake, a female pastel motley cornsnake. It was a yearling at the time of purchase.
I never bothered to sex it, just trusted the seller's abilities.
Two years later I bought him a male to go with her and we discovered his was also a male.
Should I have went back to the seller and asked for a refund plus two years worth of mice I had fed the missexed animal? No.
Should I have even expected any monetary compensation after two years? In my opinion, no.
It was my fault for waiting two years to sex it, I should have done it immediately.
You waited 7 or 8 months, and in this instance I waited two years. Is there a difference? Where would the line be drawn?
What it boils down to is these are situations that we deal with as reptile keepers. It cannot really be compared to an unhealthy animal, it falls in the realm of human error, and we all make mistakes eventually. This should be taken into consideration when seeking a solution from the person who made the mistake.
 
Old 05-05-2003, 12:32 AM   #7
Boavoyage
What happen if both sellers have guarantee on correctly sexed? Whose false if snake was wrongly sexed?
 
Old 05-05-2003, 12:49 AM   #8
Clay Davenport
It's still their fault whether they guarantee it or not. they made a mistake, and should make every effort to rectify it. However, after 8 months, I wouldn't exactly label them as a bad guy if they did nothing about it, because the problem would have been identifiable from the start. I personally would make every effort to fix the situation, but I can also see from the seller's point of view if he decided he was just not responsible after this length of time.
The questions I raised were just concerning what could be reasonably expected as restitution considering the time frame involved.

Normally exchange or refund of the original price plus shipping fees is pretty much all that you can expect. If the problem had been discovered right off the bat, then this would have been completely adequate. It's the time you took for the problem to be realized that is adding to your expectations of what you deserve. That length of time is not the fault of the seller.
It doesn't change the fact he is responsible for selling you the wrong sex, but you simply cannot punish him for your taking so long to discover a problem that would have been identifiable immediately.
Had it been a het that grew up and turned out to be normal, it would be an entirely different situation. You have no way of knowing if a hatchling is het, but you can tell the sex of it.

If it were me, the next time I was at either of the places that does your sexing, I would just have them teach me how to do it myself.
I say this, but right now I have no less than 15 snakes in my collection that I have never sexed but am raising as breeders. If some turn out to be the wrong sex, it wouldn't be the first time, but I won't be going back to the person who sold them to me either, I'm the one that has a set of probes in the cabinet but has neglected to sex them.
 
Old 05-05-2003, 02:46 AM   #9
Boavoyage
Quote:
Had it been a het that grew up and turned out to be normal, it would be an entirely different situation. You have no way of knowing if a hatchling is het, but you can tell the sex of it.
As I stated, I don't know how to sex them, so there's no way I can tell the sex of it. I don't want to give myself an excuse here, but if everytime I buy a snake, I really don't feel that I have to drive 45 minutes or 1 hour 30 minutes to have him/her sex again. The reason I have my snake sex is when I was going to sell or trade them. Although they were sexed, it was my responsible to make sure they are properly sexed before I send them out. I don't expect to label the sellers bad guys unless they ignored my notification, and don't attempt to resolve. Also, since you bring it up, genetic and sex are things that will not change by time, not like health condition. What happen if it's a supposed to be het that turned out normal? Would the seller just refunds the original price and pays for the shipping fee involved? If it would not, why would it be different with sex?

Quote:
If it were me, the next time I was at either of the places that does your sexing, I would just have them teach me how to do it myself.
I agreed that there's thing that you can learn. However, from what I learn, sexing snake, including poping and probing, should be better done by the professional.
 
Old 05-05-2003, 06:16 AM   #10
Clay Davenport
Quote:
As I stated, I don't know how to sex them, so there's no way I can tell the sex of it. I don't want to give myself an excuse here, but if everytime I buy a snake, I really don't feel that I have to drive 45 minutes or 1 hour 30 minutes to have him/her sex again.
Actually you are giving yourself an excuse. You shouldn't have to drive that far just to confirm you got what you were supposed to. You should however learn to sex snakes if you are going to be breeding them, or otherwise offering them for sale regularly.
People do make mistakes, they incorrectly read the probe depth, they accidentally get a sexed pair mixed up, these things happen. The more you deal with snakes the greater your chances of running into this problem. The best way to protect yourself is to learn to sex them.

Quote:
Also, since you bring it up, genetic and sex are things that will not change by time, not like health condition. What happen if it's a supposed to be het that turned out normal? Would the seller just refunds the original price and pays for the shipping fee involved? If it would not, why would it be different with sex?
The difference is you have no way at all to determine the genetics of a het without breeding it, and that means you have to raise it for at least a couple of years. The sex can be determined at birth, or in the case of a buyer, as soon as you remove it from the snake bag if you so desire.
The point is who bears the responsibility? In the case of a het that turns out not to be, the seller bears full responsibility, because you have no means at all to determine the genetics. In the case of wrong sex, the seller bears the responsibility of supplying the correct sex, but at some point the buyer also bears the responsibility of determining if it is indeed the correct sex in a timely manner.
Part of this responsibility is realizing that the seller does not owe you for the food you gave the snake before you realized it wasn't the right sex.

Quote:
I agreed that there's thing that you can learn. However, from what I learn, sexing snake, including poping and probing, should be better done by the professional.
What makes Prehistoric Pets or Reptile Haven, or your local friend professionals and more qualified to probe a snake than you? I think you're selling yourself a bit short here. There's no magic tricks, or secret techniques involved in probing. You can learn to be skilled at it just as anyone can.
You should of course be shown the correct technique by someone who is themselves skilled in it, but there's no reason to limit the practice to the "professionals".
Years ago I used to load up all my hatchlings every year and take them to a good friend of mine's house. We'd order pizza and he's sex my snakes. I'd usually give him a pair of something he wanted for his trouble.
I did this because I was afraid to sex snakes myself, I feared injuring them.
I came to realize that this was a skill that I needed to know, so I bought a set of probes and that fall I took all my hatchlings over to his house and had him teach me. Any I was unsure of, he double checked for me. By the time we were finished, I had learned the feel of it, and was capable of sexing everything for myself from that point on.
 

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