Are We In Trouble.?......

Ok, here's the deal.....you are all great people, and if you could give me some advice on what to do next here, I would really appreciate it.....again.....! As some of you may know, a month ago (Nov 20), I introduced Monty (male) to my huge female. Only for about an hour at a time and only 4 times. We let them crawl on each other while my husband and I watched them on the couch. They were only in the tank once together and never ever locked tails. They were both eating just fine before this. Since then, my little boy will not eat. I've had him to the vet and had a couple of posts on since because I've been worried about him having parasites, etc. well, he doesn't have parasites, internal or external. I have his cage temps and humids all correct. He has plenty of places to hide and feel safe, etc. etc. etc. Then, on Nov.29th he pooped and a sperm plug took a ride out on the poo. That's the very first one I seen and since then I haven't seen anymore come out of him and can't pop any out. He shed on the 17th of Dec, and needed help with it even though he had plenty of humidity., That stressed him out because I had to help him by bathing him in luke warm water. The skin was glued on and all the time in world wouldn't have let him get it off of himself, so It was now or never. He is a very underweight snake for his age as it is.
when I purchased him back in april-06 he weighed 500g and was 3.5 ft long, and 6 years old and half starved. Once I got him, He ate 3 large adult mice every week to ten days up until his last meal on Nov 20th. He didn't gain anything during those 8 months. WHAT UP WITH THAT????? He was only being fed two mice per MONTH before I got him. I triple his diet and he doesn't gain an ounce? That's why we suspected internal parasites. But none. He poops, he pees, he eats fine, until I introduce him to the female to make sure that they would try and eat each other. Now he's lost weight down from 504g two weeks ago, to 484g today (Dec. 20). He did have a shed and a big pee in the tub with about 4 big urate chunks which could account for the weight loss. I've spent about an hour to two hours each night for the past week dangling mice over this guys head (live and dead) and no luck. Two nights ago he struck 4 times at the live mouse I was dangling over him, but they were half assed strikes, and more like "leave me the hell alone bites " than anything. If he wanted that mouse, he had plenty of opportunity to eat it. So I tried to gently force feed him last night, and I got the freshly killed mouse half way down his throat, he was breathing fine, and each time I let him go to see if he'd finish it, he just regurged it. I only tried a few times before the mouse's nose started to bleed and it was getting pretty messy. The vet told me on Dec 13th when I had him in to check for internal parasites, that if he lost more than 50g without eating, that I should bring him back and we would have to "tube" him with some liquid food to get his digestive system going again. He thinks maybe its a combination of being put in with the female and wanting to mate (evident by the sperm plugs) and also it's the winter season, and the stress of me not leaving him alone. I phoned the previous owner, and she told me that they never had a problem with him eating. He ate every two weeks for 6 years straight (one small mouse). well, of course, he was in a dark basement room, no UTH, no humidity but a water bowl and no sunlight. He was half starved and was in the peak of his growing because they purchased him as a baby. of course he's gonna eat. Now he's almost 7 years old, and he's the size of a baby snake, but 3.75 ft long. Very skinny and long. Here's some pics I'll insert for you to see taken this morning., He looks like he weighs more than 484g doesn't he? but three scales can't be wrong....

TAKEN TODAY....

Well Do not take this wrong.

You should have never attempted breeding with under wieght snakes.

Ball Python males do go off feed during this time of year. It is what they do it is natural. I ahve a few that are doing the same thing. People think that Ball pythons ar ebad feeders but that is far from the truth. Ifyou research their history you will see that this is a normal thing them going off feed.

Your snake is thin. This can be seen. Remove him to a quite spot. Do not bother him unless it is to ettept to feed or clean. Try to offer food every three days. Try the paper bag trick with a f/t animal

your little guy has been through a lot the last few weeks now.

and remember Force feeding is the last thing you should do.

I would have to agree with your vet. Winter breeding season, playing with a female, and constant harassment.

I love McDonald's, but if a big giant was constantly harassing me with a Bag O' Big Mac's I think I would lose my appetite too.

I would keep him in a dark, quiet cage with proper heat in a room as far from the female as possible. Leave him alone, ie. no handling except for cage cleaning. And offer food once every few days. If feeding live then only offer it for a minute at most. If F/T then show it on the tongs for a few seconds, if he doesn't look interested then you can put it in with him for an hour or two. But then leave the room, don't keep watching to see if he eats.

I am going to disagree with the vet saying tube feeding is necessary at this point. He is a little on the thin side, but he's not dangerously thin yet, IMO. His reluctance to feed is basically due to stress from trying to get him to eat, and possibly from the desire to breed now. His recent shed is a sign he's growing, if not in weight, at least in length. If he's growing, he's not as bad off as the vet is making it sound.

As for trying to get him to feed, I would stick with one kind of rat. If he was eating f/t before, there is no reason to try live and fresh killed. Stick with the f/t and warm it up with a heating pad or lamp so you're tempting the natural feeding response with the heat. I would also cut back on the trying to once a week at the most, but you'll get different opinions on that, as you see already. One thing that works with one of my balls is to warm up the rat, and while she's in a feeding tub, I let the rat drop with a plopping sound a few inches in front of the snake. She almost always grabs it at that point, even when she shows no interest in it beforehand.

I realize you feel like he's on a downhill run right now, but he is going to be more stressed with trying to feed him more often, and that will work against the end goal. I would even say leave him alone totally for at least another week before you even begin to try to feed again.

Good luck with him and do keep us posted.

Well, I guess I was really trying to see if they were compatible first, not trying to breed really. parents are always eager to let their new baby see the older sibling right? I think that's what we've been doing. And it got a little too advanced and put him into breed mode. I'll take your advice and leave him alone for a week and then try with a f/t. He takes both live and f/t the same over the past eight months. he really takes to the fresh live ones better and faster, but they are expensive and if he doesn't take it, then I have to drown it and freeze it anyways. Thanks, and I will keep you posted.

I agree with what's already been said....leave him alone for a good week, then go back to trying to feed what he's used to eating, but only attempt to feed every few days. He's obviously skinny, but it's only been a month since his last meal, I can't see force feeding as necessary at this point, and the stress of that alone isn't going to do him any favors, IMO.

And I love this line....

I love McDonald's, but if a big giant was constantly harassing me with a Bag O' Big Mac's I think I would lose my appetite too.

Good luck.

As for drowning (*shudder*) and freezing the live mouse if he doesn't take it.....it's not that tough to set up a little cage and keep it and feed it for a week or so, until the next feeding. If he prefers live, your best chance to get him to eat is with that.

Just leave him be, let him chill out, and keep trying... Don't force anything unless he is getting super lethargic and even skinnier than now...

thanks guys and gals.....and all herp junkies out there. Its hard to believe how much we really do rely on each other for help. We have moved him into a quiet dark place with a little sunlight each day, but away from our 7 year old's play areas. I picked him up yesterday to clean up what the mouse had pooped and peed, and he was very active, wanted to get out of my hands as quick as possible, etc. He moves like lightening on the floor, I had a hard time snapping those pics of him. As for the mice and keeping them alive, I do have a mouse cage and I did keep these ones alive for about a week, but they stink to high heaven no matter how much you clean their cages, and its winter here so I can't keep them outside or in a shed with heat lamps. Minus 30 deg. celsius is just too cold. I could probably just keep the one in there at a time instead of two or more. It wouldn't be that bad then. I have one alive in there right now awaiting it's fate. They sure love ritz crackers. ANYBODY HAVE ANY THOUGHTS ON WHY MY BP HASN'T GAINED ANYTHING IN THE 8 MONTHS I'VE HAD HIM ON A TRIPLED DIET? IT BAFFLES ME. IS IT POSSIBLE HES STUNTED FROM BEING STARVED FOR 6 YEARS MAYBE? IS HE JUST MEANT TO BE A SMALL SNAKE? I HAVE JUST NOT COME UP WITH A GOOD REASON FOR HIM TO NOT GAIN ANYTHING ON TWELVE MICE A MONTH UP FROM TWO PER MONTH. HE SHOULD HAVE DOUBLED HIS WEIGHT BY NOW EASILY.

Originally Posted by 6y0ballpython

ANYBODY HAVE ANY THOUGHTS ON WHY MY BP HASN'T GAINED ANYTHING IN THE 8 MONTHS I'VE HAD HIM ON A TRIPLED DIET? IT BAFFLES ME. IS IT POSSIBLE HES STUNTED FROM BEING STARVED FOR 6 YEARS MAYBE? IS HE JUST MEANT TO BE A SMALL SNAKE? I HAVE JUST NOT COME UP WITH A GOOD REASON FOR HIM TO NOT GAIN ANYTHING ON TWELVE MICE A MONTH UP FROM TWO PER MONTH. HE SHOULD HAVE DOUBLED HIS WEIGHT BY NOW EASILY.

That does kinda baffle me. What internal parasite tests were preformed? I remember ones were done, but it is possible that they missed something. the 3 BP's I got in June that weighed 194, 202, and 250 are 550, 760, and 726 as of November 12, and their even bigger now. I know the middle one is in the 900 range now, but it's not on my computer yet so I don't know exactly.

Yours is older, and probably wouldn't grow as fast. But I would have thought that you should have seen some increase in weight.