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SOUND OFF!!! Ever have something REALLY bugging you and nowhere to vent about it? Well, this is the place. It does not have to be fauna oriented at all! Get it off your chest right here.

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Old 07-30-2003, 10:06 AM   #1
John Apple
Law makers breaking laws to uphold laws

I think the title tells it all
They will break every law they can think of to uphold one
such as smoking pot
doing coke and anything thing else they can think of such as raping the woods of wildlife to sell and then buy back so they can get you with protected animals....can anyone else see the similarities here with the last fish and game busts going on recently [i.e. operation slither]
I will say I don't condone drugs or such

but isn't this like the pot calling the kettle back???
 
Old 07-30-2003, 02:31 PM   #2
dself40
I feel the same way John.I am going round and round with the Police here.Its fine for them to write speeding tickets to us.But they seem to think they are above the law and can do whatever they want.I am working on writing a letter to the editer for the newspaper to see if they will print it.And I am checking to see what I can do.The way the system works we are on the losing end of the stick regardless unless you have that so called speacial badge or tittle.We are losing our rights everyday.And this is supposed to be a free country?And everyone wonders why I live way out in the country..lol..
 
Old 07-31-2003, 10:34 PM   #3
Glenn Bartley
Quote:
We are losing our rights everyday. And this is supposed to be a free country?
A quote by Thomas Paine is applicable to your words:
Quote:
Society in every state is a blessing, but Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
We may have the NECESSARY evil, but certainly have nothing near the INTOLERABLE one.

All this talk of people abusing their power and wiping out your rights is, as I see it, pure manure. So the police have some more power after 9/11. Some laws are on the books that you apparently don't like and enforcement of them gets you upset, and apparently upset enough to accuse law enforcement officials of being above the law. First of all that too is for the great majority of LEOs a lot of horse hockey. Sure some cops are jerks, and act as if they can violate our rights simply because they have a badge and a gun, but most in law enforcement are there for a different reason - to protect the rights of guys like you, so you can bad mouth us. It makes me want to vomit. Why bad mouth law enforcement as a group; why not rather document the specific offenders and offenses and report them to the proper authorities. Then how about trying to support the efforts of law enforcement in their daily quest to fight crime, and defeat the criminal element in this country and abroad.

You have not lost rights every day as you claim, nor has anyone else in the USA. The rights are still there but possibly interpreted somewhat differently because of recent all too horrific events; and bear in mind that the government has rights too - especially regarding national security. Sorry if I cannot shed a tear for you - I would rather busy myself, trying to make America secure enough so that you and any other American doesn't wind up dead with a terrorist bomb fragment in your head. That may not be preventable, even the Israelis seem unable to prevent terrorism, but we are sure trying to prevent it. We have held em off for a good while now too. Why do we do that, why do we protect you? Sometimes when I see stuff like what you wrote I have to wonder myself. While you complain of all the rights you have lost, please bear in mind that most law enforcement officers in the USA are hard at work assuring that tonight you can sleep soundly in your bed and wake up refreshed tomorrow completely free to bad mouth your protectors again; to me it sounds like you have quite a bit of freedom.

Freedom is not free that is for certain. Running away to way out in the country accomplishes nothing with regards to freedom. If you really want freedom to ring in the USA, then I suggest you heed some other words of Thomas Paine:
Quote:
Those who expect to reap the blessing of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it.
-- Thomas Paine, 1737-1809

The key words here being: ..."the fatigue of supporting it"...!

Hell I volunteered to be a Federal Air Marshal after 9/11 and was so assigned for 6 months. I crapped my pants every time the plane started to roll down the runway. I also volunteered to work the Joint Terrorist Task Force and am doing so currently. Do you think that law enforcement officers volunteer for these things just to get a special badge? Mine is the same piece of gold plated tin I had before I volunteered. Or maybe you think we are out there looking for Little Bo Peep's lost sheep. Well it ain't so fella. I have only two years sixty three days until I can retire after 24 years of putting up with the likes of ungrateful people like you. Sometimes, with all the bad stuff going on lately, and with my recent assignments, I wonder if I will make it until then. Just that thought alone makes me seriously wonder if protecting the freedoms of guys like you is worth it after all! And while I may wonder about it, I know what I'll be doing the next time I show up for work, and it won't be oppressing the freedom of Americans (not even yours), that is for sure!
 
Old 08-01-2003, 12:05 AM   #4
dself40
Ok so now all the cops that break laws are ok?I knew someone would be offended but that is to be suspected.Its not just my one deal with them I am no means a criminal.So its ok for the Police around here to drive there cars all the time when WE tax payers pay for the Gas?And I have complained to the Police Chief and if you live ina town like I do it all depends on WHO you know.I am not saying all Law Enforcement is bad but the few that break the rules makes it look very bad on the good ones.I have a few friends that are either city police or state troopers.You know if you just sit back and watch and keep an eye out of the police you will find them speeding,running stop sighnc and so forth.But if we get caught doing that and try and fight it since THEY have a badge we have no right in fighting the charge there word means so much more than mine in COURT?And its not just the Traffic laws that burn me up.

I am a Mechanic.I have worked on cars/trucks and the folks dont have the money to pay so I tell them when they come up with the cash they can have it.They call the Police and say that I have there car and wont give it to them.Even thou I have a Work order sighned by them I have to release there car and work for free?The Police that responded told me if I didnt release the car I would goto jail.( for working on these folks car trying to make a living) That is the American way)I have taken it to the Police Chief and Mayor and they say,Yes them Officers were wrong but you will just have to try and collect your money from the customer?Like they are gonna pay.They admit wrong doing but thats ok?And I dont get paid.Kinda hard to pay that speeding ticket when you work for free or pay pills or feed the family.They dont work for free.

The Law Enforcement maybe different in bigger Citys but here in these small town it Boils down to who you know.I know I wasnt an angel when I was a teenager.And what burns me up if you do decide to take a ticket or anything that pertains to law enforcement to court you better have at least a dozen witneses(SP?)or you are fighting a losing battle even IF you are in the wright.It says on the back of a ticket you are innocent until proven Guilty,Like that means anything.Why is it that there word means so much more than mine in Court?Its like anyone who gets a fine is of lesser life than the Officer.I know the majority of them do serve justice and protect me and my family but what about the ones that dont?Are they just over looked?Cause the good guys/gals on the force make up for it?

Around here it takes 20 written complaints to get and officer fired.How many fines or tickets would it take to land me in jail it would be way fewer than twenty.

So the cops that break the law its ok for them because they are trying to save me from a terrist attack?And there good makes up for there bad?You know I come on The BS forum to vent and I get attacked doesnt surprise me at all.Sepacialy by another law enforcement officer.I did say that it was the Bad cops I was complaining about it.I know everyone isnt perfect but if yall take an oath to up hold the law shouldnt you?You know what kind of example is that teaching the rest of the world if a law enforcement officer can break the law and get by with it?You know id I am speeding or whatever breaking the law yes I need a ticket and deserve one but when you arent and get a ticket and goto fight it I am in still in the wrong?For questioning a Law Enforcement officer.They never do wrong.

And yes it is low lifes like me that cause all the problems in the world.I speak whats on my mind and get called a lesser life form that you.Thats ok with me.I can handle it.If us lesser life forms stuck together like Law enforcement officers did(Good and Bad) we could take over the world.lol..

So now since I spoke what was on my mind about upholding the law I am in the bad guy book?Thats fine I guess I need to live up the up to my label.I was just venting about what goes on around here in my neck of the woods and get attacked.From a Law Enforcement Offficer on top of that.Shows you exactly what I was talking about.

But that just my opnion or my 2 cents worth.Which doesnt really matter apparently.So I guess I need to retract all of my venting to make everyone happy.Not.I am free to speak whats on my mind I think..And you yourself just said you dont know why you protect folks like me you dont even know me and I am already labeled a bad guy in your book thats exactly what I am talking about.

Oh yea Glenn if you know of a better way to get the bad guys or who to complain to I would be open to suggestions.It doesnt do any good at all to call the Police Chief or Mayor.I live where the good old boys still have there way..


Oh yea sorry for the typos and I can't spell very well either.And I dont have very good gramar and all that but you get the point..
 
Old 08-01-2003, 12:29 AM   #5
Randy T.
I have to agree with Dusty on this thread. I am a former Dept. of Corrections employee, and have been requested to apply as a police officer for a large, and a small city before. (so I am not a biased ignorant anti law redneck) I think police officers should be held accountable for the actions they commit far more often. I see on a daily basis officers who speed without the squad lights on (if they are in a hurry they should have the lights on) I have witnessed them make illegal turns, so they can hurry home for lunch breaks, and also run 2 stop signs in the process. (2 police live down the street from me) and even though they break the law on a regular basis you better not mention to them of the infractions they have committed. I also have witnessed police officers solicit sexual favors from underage girls while they were on duty, so to say that people over react to what law enforcement officers do while using the badge as a defense is far to harsh.... just my thoughts and opinions on the subject.
 
Old 08-01-2003, 09:00 AM   #6
Glenn Bartley
Quote:
Ok so now all the cops that break laws are ok?
Now reread my original post in this thread and show me where in any way I said that law enfocement violating law or regulation is ok!
Quote:
Why bad mouth law enforcement as a group; why not rather document the specific offenders and offenses and report them to the proper authorities.
Is what I said about law enforcement who break the rules. Now if you have done that already at the local level without good result, maybe it is time to move up to the state or federal levels. Dirtbag cops are just that - Dirtbags! As for cops telling you that you had to return a car before it was paid for - well guess what - cops make mistakes too. If you feel so wronged by it then get a lawyer and file a civil claim in civil court. You may be surprosed what an effect that can have. I do not condone dirtbag law enforcement officers by any stretch of the imagination - in fact I turned one in a couple years back for beating a prisoner - I got no medals or thanks for that, I got only bigtime grief I can tell you - but I did the right thing and would do it again.

I have lived in small towns, while a federal LEO. I have witnessed less than good work performance there by the local officers and was subjected to their inadequuacies myself. I filed a formal complaint, it went to the state level and they were punished for their inactions. You certainly can document any wrongdoing of a police officer, report it, have it investigated and then have the officers punished - but guess what - they too are innocent until proven guilty if a criminal offesnse - and in a civil or administrative matter you need to show a preponderance of the evidence to make a charge stick. One other thing, especially true of police on the street level - they get complaints every day. They get legitimate complaints and bogus complaints from every type of citizen they encounter from a dirtbag to the pope! Most of the complaints are usually handled foir what they are which is trash, but the ones that are real should be investigated and the officer should pay the piper.

This last bit is for Randy. If you have witnessed the things you say you have seen, and then not documented all of the available evidence and then not reported them, or not arrested for at least the most serious offense, and if you are truly an LEO, then you are, in my opinion, one of the ones that needs to be charged yourself with failure to carry out your duties! Soliciting sexual favors from a minor is falls under peodophilia, and that is a crime comitted by sickos, and a crime that is overlooked only by, in my opinion, only a low life.

As to the other violations that you witness, have you reported each of them too. Heck get a video camera and document those cops running lights. If there is no legitimate reason they would likely be in hot water. As to speeding without lights on, there could be a legitimate reason even if it does violate regulation. If your life has ever been on the line in such a situation you would know what I mean.

If on the other hand you did document and report all of it - good for you! I hope the guy who did the soliciting thing of a minor is in jail right now. I surely would like the docket number if this went to court so I could read up on it. It gives me a feeling of some satisfaction to see dirtbag LEOs get what is coming to them.

PS please don't think I am ignoring you guys if I don't reply to your answers. I will be out of town for a couple of days, should have left ten minutes ago.

Best regards,
Glenn B
 
Old 08-01-2003, 01:56 PM   #7
dself40
Hey Glenn I dint mean to make you mad or anything I was just venting on the Dirtbag cops as you call them.I know if it wasnt for the good guys On the froce it would be hell to pay.And without LEo's it wouldnt be a very nice place to live.It just burns me up how if and when a person like myself goes to report a Bad cop we are treated like offenders.And why should we have to have all kinda of documantations when an LEo just has to have his word and a ticket book?And I know there are alot of the Laws in the book I dont like but thats life.Like I have said before I have several freinds that are LEO's state and locla level.And they even say there are alot of laws they dont agree with and dont enforce.

The way you jump all over me was like I was bad mouthing you.If you are a good guy why was I to blame for bringing up bad LEO's?You must be doing something wright to have Been in the Leo;s for so long.And I do apreciate the good Leo's.It just the bad ones make the good guys look bad.Its like they are afraid to say something against there another Officer.

The thing that burns me up like I have said before is why do us regular folks have to have so much documentation to go against a Leo?It just doesnt seem fair.And hire a lawyer over 200 bucks its just not owrth it.I filed a complaint on both the cops that done me wrong and they got there butt chewed.What about my money?I should have to sue for it.There is already to much of that going on to bother with it.Everyone wants to sue for something or another.They Police Chief and Mayor admited guilt but nothing ever come of it.And to top it off they wanted me to give them a bargain on the repairs they screwed me out of.And when you do take something to court like a bogus ticket or something if you win they get there buddies to harass you cause they cant or you can get them for harassment.Its a no win deal here in the small towns.

(in fact I turned one in a couple years back for beating a prisoner)

I turned in a city cop the other day for speeding with a prisoner in his car.And the Police chief told me that when they have a prisoner in the car they are excempt from the speed limit.So they can purposly endaher the prisoners life?If that law is so if you get picked up you have no rights at all.If you get caught speeding with a child in the car they can get you for endangering the life of a child.So a child has more rights than a grown man/woman?


Glenn I apologize if I have offended you.I was just venting.And wasnt trying to get everyone all worked up.I know there are alot more good LEO's out there than bad ones.Its just the principal of the deal.They say that yall take an oath to uphold the law.And in my thinking if you get caught not doing so you should not be given chances and more chances to not do that.Its just like there are becoming more and more bad cops.I dont know if its just rookies that are trying to make a name for themselfs or what.

And again Glenn I apologize for offending you.
 
Old 08-01-2003, 03:07 PM   #8
John Apple
This is a bunch of CR@P

The way I look at it............
Nobody is above the law
its that simple
how can any one deviate from this for the sake of upholding the law
remember operation 'slither'?? yeah I am sure we all do
these officials were ..smoking pot..doing coke [ drugs I am against except alcohol..it's LEGAL].. and trapping animals all for the sake of some turtles and snakes.
In one instance one official sold a turtle to one vender at a show and not 30 minutes later another official bought it back from him.
does anyone see something wrong here??
well I do
Sorry my wording is not long but it's to the point [no offence to any other posts]
 
Old 08-03-2003, 07:44 AM   #9
Glenn Bartley
dself40,

Actually you explained yourself much better this time, and maybe it is me who owes you the apology. Sorry if I offended you. The subject does get me going, though I do understand how some LEOs can be real jerks. I gotta say one thing about speeding tickets: Do you ever speed by a cop and not get a ticket? It is a common thing to see police officers use discretion and not enforce laws, while at other times they may enforce them. I am not trying to stick up for the jerks - but am just talking about them in general. As for them not giving tickets to other cops, yeah I know that happens. That is a privilege thing they USUALLY extend to other LEOs but believe me not always. I'll bet though there are lots of things cops have seen you do that violate regulations or laws that they do not enforce. I don't know if it is right or not. Cops also give courtesy to the general public too. Little things like not ticketing you every time you speed, or every time you do not use your directional signal, or when you spit on the ground, or when you litter and on and on. Their job, to some extent, is enforcing the law; however they are under no obligation to do so - as was determined in the Supreme Court (pretty sure it was the SC and not an appellate court) not too long ago. The SC said LEOs are under no obligation to investigate or enforce laws (isn't that amazing - but true).

I understand how the bs of what the cops in your area are allegedly doing can be offensive, As for regular folks having to document an offense, so to do police officers, and that documentation will come out in court if they are properly challenged. You may be surprised to see exactly what documentation they have, but yes a lot of it does come down to their word against yours in some cases. The reason for that is pretty basic - lots of people try to lie their way to a not guilty verdict - could be many reasons for it - such as insurance will go up, husband will beat wife, wife will beat husband, dad will get mad, mom will get mad, I don't really think I was speeding, I was only doing 57 in a 55 zone and wasn't going 90. The thing is though that if a cop is ever proven to lie under oath (in criminal cases anyway) they can be prevented from ever testifying again in another criminal case or at least be prejudiced against by the court. If called to task, however, they will have to prove their case in more detail. It happens a lot. They will have to produce notes, show the method they used to clock your speed, show that the equipment was working properly, show what the speed limit actually was at the place you got stopped, and often produce their prior record as an LEO. In the daily run of the mill case, they don't need to do that because the judge is pretty familiar with such cases, and believes the integrity of the officer and because even the ticketed person never complains that the cop did anything wrong but just says the officer must be mistaken. Enough complaints about a cop doing stuff wrong will get him censored, reprimanded, fined, or even fired; but those complaints do need to be documented. Another reason for documentation is that people, especially guilty ones, often try to set up the cop with a complaint so that the cop will get in trouble and look less credible thereby reducing or negating the original charges.

The system we have now is not perfect, but that is all part of human nature. This is not an excuse but an explanation. I don't need to excuse human nature. Sometimes our nature sucks, but when you see that same cop who you complain about: giving CPR to your child after some freak accident, or when the cop is struck and killed by a speeding drunk driver as he writes a ticket to another speeder on the side of the road, or when that same cop takes a bullet in a hostage situation trying to save a group of people who some crazy is holding, or when you see one cop the hero for justifiably shooting an crazed criminal of his own race, yet another under virtually identical circumstances gets fried in the press and by both civil and criminal courts because he shot a crazed criminal of another race - then maybe you will understand (not condone but just understand) why they don't always give one another tickets all that often.

John,

I have read some articles on this recent event called Operation Slither. I have not seen any references to the coke snorting and pot smoking of which you refer. These things, by the way would be illegal for a LEO to do in any investigation except maybe where someone's life depended on it in the immediate time frame (such as if you don't smoke this joint I'll kill you because then I'll know your a cop - and the guy has a gun shoved in your face). Even then, as I remember my training, I am not supposed to puff away, but I think I'd rather puff on a doobie than the barrel of a 44 magnum!

I am not saying that the things you report did not actually happen, but it was not reported in the few articles I saw and I will say I strongly doubt it did actually happen. LEOs do not smoke pot and snort coke to further investigations. In fact, they often make it look as if that is what they are doing, but some officers are pretty well trained in how to fake it.

As for other actions, there is very possibly absolutely nothing wrong with them:QUOTE]In one instance one official sold a turtle to one vender at a show and not 30 minutes later another official bought it back from him.[/quote]Guess what, actions like this by the police are perfectly legal (dependent upon local, state or federal regulations that are applicable to the case). That is how undercover operations are often legally carried out. So long as the police did not entrap the offender (such as by offering the illegal item at a ridiculously lowball price, or by offering to buy it an an absurdly high price) at the time of either event buying or selling, then such was likely alright legally.

You also mentioned that wildlife officials raped the woods - I imagine you mean they caught some animals to use in the sting operation. If that was the case, my guess would be that these animals are returned to the wild pretty close to where each was found. My other guess is that there are sections in the law permitting wildlife officers to capture wildlife for study and appropriate purposes. Chances are they did what they did legally. I see absolutely nothing wrong with them using a turtle as bait to catch someone who would illegally buy and sell such, It is a fact that people who do so are bringing down the pet industry, the herp hobby, and are screwing wit the environment. Sure I know some environmental laws, and laws about herp keeping suck, but that is why you need to properly keep what you can and educate the public and politicians about these animals while overcoming the prejudice against reptiles and their keepers at the same time.

I am pretty open to change my mind about what went on at operation slither - just send me the links and I'll read the articles or forums; but for now my guess would be that this was another run of the mill undercover operation.


Best regards,
Glenn b
 
Old 08-03-2003, 09:19 AM   #10
dself40
Glenn,
I accept your apology and I hope you accept mine apology.This SUbject kinda gets me going to.I kinda went overvboard on a few of my posts.And I dont always explain myself very well while typing.I am sure you noticed I am 28 and still have alot to learn and I try to learn all I can about the laws.Although it is sometimes very hard to understand them how they are written in the books.I dont consider myself the sharpest tool in the shed but I can learn and comprehind most things but the way the law books are its often you need someone to interpetate(SP?) them for you.And yes I usally speed just a little from time to time.And I dont mind at all paying a fine if I am guilty.Its just as we have all stated in previous post that some LEo's have somekinf of burn under there saddle.And I know we are only human.And NOBODY is perfect.

And I was always under the assumption that LEO's took and oath to uphold the law.I got a new wrinkle there to..lol..I guess thats why they can use desfretion in writting tickets and so forth.And I dont blame them.

And yes I have and wills till from time to time go sit and watch the Municipal Court hearings and all.And there are probally 90% or better of the causes that folks are just trying to weasel there way out of a fine.And it pissses me of to see that.You hvae repeat offenders up there lieing and you can see wright threw ther lies.Enough of that would make anyone mad.I could go on and on about how bad I have seen it in the Municipal Court.And I have fought a few bogus tickets myself but if I know I am guilty of the fine I pay it and go on with my life.

What really gets my goat is when you get pulled over and the LEO has nothing to say but give me your liscense,Insurance and registration.And acks like you are just a kid wont even talk to you about anything just cut throat and to the point.And I know they hear lots of BS by folks trying get out of the ticket.But I like to ask wuestions and learn even if its not about my fine or why I was doing what I was doing.

WEll Glenn I have learned a few more things from you.And thats what I am after is learning you can never know to much.And I dont think you are one of the bad LEO's.If so I dont think you would still be on any Force.And I am glad you have served your time and have made it though and about ready to retire.(If thats what you want)I know who I can ask wuestions now (if you dont mind)about the law.I am sure you know them very good as long as you have been protecting us.

And again I apologize for offending you I didnt mean to.

Have a nice day or as they say in Arkansas Have a rice day...lol
 

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