Can We Enforce a Higher Level of Accountablity?

In Utopia it's great.

In the here and now it's just a dumb idea.

Originally Posted by Gary O

I think this is a very good point!

IMO I think there is somethings that can be done to help but there will always be loop holes and flaws.

GGC could be free to apply
Then just leave the voting as is but this would get people to register fake names just to vote for good or bad.

There is just so much that could be flawed and it all comes down to the cheats in the hobby. Funny how that works.

Like said though. The people that scam do not care about the laws anyway or they would not scam. The best thing to do is make a clear thread with a clear title so it can be searched easily. This would be a great step also. As Some thread titles are not so searchable.

We need a place that has facts and not just argueing about other things in BOI threads. There are a few that have pages about something that is not about the topic.

Is there an easy way to get rid of the scum in the hobby? NO

We are on the same page. But in my opinion, laws aren't to get rid of scammers or law-breakers..but to give those that have gotten scammed a more concrete recourse of some kind..(darn, I may have to send PIJAC an email asking them how they got started, how many were on the original team and how many walls they had to break down before they could get everyone to work together.)

Originally Posted by Wilomn

In Utopia it's great.

In the here and now it's just a dumb idea.

Thank you for your opinion.

Originally Posted by Jim O

Just because someone sells something does not mean it's a good idea. They also sell cigarettes because people want them. How does a market driven demand for cereal to put in baby formula (which, btw, is a very bad idea and is thought by many medical scientists and practitioners to have increased the incidence of food allergies in children -- see http://www.keepkidshealthy.com/welco...allergies.html for some info) have anything to do with what you are suggesting? You are using a very bad idea (cereal to mix in formula) to promote your suggestions.

We are talking about IDEAS *in case you missed the point of the reference*
Thank you for your opinion.

Originally Posted by deborahbroadus

I understand what you are saying. But it appears to me that people are speaking of singular personal experiences and not the general good for all? Certainly this can be approached rationally by politicans if we have a representative speak for us? Not all herpers have tattoos up the yahzoo with piercings on every orifice and outside, a big gut, balding...oops almost started talking about the politicans..(well who am I to speak..I recall the lynching years)...so I am going to leave that thread of thought alone..I certainly do understand the mindset of the small minded.

Small minded? People are small minded because they refuse to follow a narrow minded person? The more you post , the more I find to disagree with and less to respect or take seriously.

Has you broad mind exercising great trains of thought taken into account the EXTRA regulation that would stem from State , County and City once the Feds were done? The regulation from them could make it even more difficult for the average person to get into the hobby. Even to the point of making it difficult for those that just want a " pet snake ".

The drawback to the regulations you propose is the effect it will have on those that voluntarily follow proper guidelines set by mentors , friends etc and work in this industry as good guys. Your proposal could in fact , turn into mass punishment affecting those you think your trying to protect. Will the regulations thats supposed to protect us really be worth it when animals are confiscated and put down due to the EXTRA regulations that deem them unfit to be kept? No every town , city or county will adopt a permit system for every species.

Have you thought of the extra expense for permits for those that have large collections? If the permits average $10 - 25 per animal , thats a lot of change for someone to cough up to be " protected ". Keep in mind too that all this protection comes at a price so WE would be the ones to have to pay that price. What if the county , city or town decides that once a collection reaches a certain point , or those that keep hots , can no longer keep them in their house but must obtain a separate facility / building. That is by far not cheap.

Have you really sat down and moved a thought past your enormous soapbox? Have you really thought of the implications that may be involved? And don't think that once started , if you see it going down hill and pull back , that someone won't sink their teeth in it and keep it going without you.

Step back and give this more thought. We small minds can't think of everything for you.

Originally Posted by BryonsBoas

Small minded? People are small minded because they refuse to follow a narrow minded person? The more you post , the more I find to disagree with and less to respect or take seriously.

Has you broad mind exercising great trains of thought taken into account the EXTRA regulation that would stem from State , County and City once the Feds were done? The regulation from them could make it even more difficult for the average person to get into the hobby. Even to the point of making it difficult for those that just want a " pet snake ".

The drawback to the regulations you propose is the effect it will have on those that voluntarily follow proper guidelines set by mentors , friends etc and work in this industry as good guys. Your proposal could in fact , turn into mass punishment affecting those you think your trying to protect. Will the regulations thats supposed to protect us really be worth it when animals are confiscated and put down due to the EXTRA regulations that deem them unfit to be kept? No every town , city or county will adopt a permit system for every species.

Have you thought of the extra expense for permits for those that have large collections? If the permits average $10 - 25 per animal , thats a lot of change for someone to cough up to be " protected ". Keep in mind too that all this protection comes at a price so WE would be the ones to have to pay that price. What if the county , city or town decides that once a collection reaches a certain point , or those that keep hots , can no longer keep them in their house but must obtain a separate facility / building. That is by far not cheap.

Have you really sat down and moved a thought past your enormous soapbox? Have you really thought of the implications that may be involved? And don't think that once started , if you see it going down hill and pull back , that someone won't sink their teeth in it and keep it going without you.

Step back and give this more thought. We small minds can't think of everything for you.

Sigh...thank you for your opinion.

Dang Bry, you must of missed this part J/K :

Originally Posted by deborahbroadus: The ideas may be Business 101 concepts; I did graduate with a Bachelor of Science in Business Administration and I am currently on haitus from getting my MA...so if you recognized the percepts..that means I learned my textbooks well.

I don't know about everyone else, but I sure don't have a Bachelor of Science in Business Administration 101.

I can't even get close to recognizing the percepts of that. And if I had an MA on my haitus, I would probraby go see the doctor pretty fast.

That was a joke, just trying to lighten the mood.

That said, I think the reptile world is regulated enough, it is getting worse every day. IMO, it does not need any extra push.
I think Bryon and JimO summed it up pretty well, it is only going to make it worse for all of us.

No , I didn't miss it. LOL , I was actually going to suggest a partial refund since the piece of paper she's patting herself on the back over is leaving her short.

Lets look at China for sec....

Wins the bid for the next Olympics BUT on the condition that they clean up their air. China's answer to that is shut down entire production facilities instead of pushing for clean air regulations.

American jobs are lost by the hundreds and thousands due to moving to countries with little or no regulation.

Microsoft brought attention to themselves by every means possible. Now they get slammed by every country under the sun and has eyes all over them.

I'm not using these as a direct comparison to the proposed idea here. Its just a comparison as how the Government Mind works. An idea gets put on the table , its voted on by those WE elected that see a furtherance of their own agenda and it either passes or fails. The unfortunate thing is the tie ins and ratifications and all the extra bells and whistles that gets put on it by those seeking furtherance of their own agendas to get their votes. Without looking at the extras tied in if it passes , it sounds wonderful until..... you realize something thats harmful to our hobby was snuck in to get the votes.

Even if all you were looking for is federal guidelines , regulations , laws to stop scammers , it puts us on their radar. All it would need is a few reptile haters or supporters of the Humane Society of America to request a few add ons to get their vote and the hard regulation starts.

Deb , you did know that the HSOA is trying to sway Congress to pass a bill that allows them to dictate what kind of pet you can have right? Do you think your proposed idea wouldn't give them something else to use against us? You did think this out throughly before bringing it to the table? You do realize that folks in big business with the same kind of paper you have take all this into consideration right?

Regulation of one aspect has generally led to regulation of another aspect. To this point all I've seen Deb discuss is at the Federal level. I'm guessing the idea of the impact it would have at the State County and City levels never occurred to those that don't have small minds. Yes I did find offense to that comment since I don't have an expensive piece of paper to back up a half assed idea and I'm forced to use research and common sense.

The big question here tho is...

Who wants to be responsible for folks being forced to loose their collections due to over regulation cuz somebody said " HEY , LOOK AT US" ?

People are small minded because they refuse to follow a narrow minded person?


Has you broad mind exercising great trains of thought taken into account the EXTRA regulation that would stem from State , County and City once the Feds were done?

Will the regulations thats supposed to protect us really be worth it when animals are confiscated and put down due to the EXTRA regulations that deem them unfit to be kept?

Have you thought of the extra expense for permits for those that have large collections?

Have you really sat down and moved a thought past your enormous soapbox?

Have you really thought of the implications that may be involved?

Those would be questions , not opinions. Thank You for not answering them. Silence speaks volumes.

Heres a few more for you to not answer.....

Who is going to teach the cops what a true illness in reptiles is?
Will they need vet training?
Who covers the expenses for the new offices to be opened , staffed and supplied?
Who sits down and teaches the law makers the reptile industry so they write the proper laws?
Who stops the extra regulation by the State , County and City?

Who protects us from the ignorant?

Sigh..I didn't answer them because it appeared clear to me that you were just trying to "score." You took a statement out of context and got offended when it wasn't aimed at you, and the rest of the post just seems geared not to encourage teamwork, but to shoot someone down. Nothing I can say would satisfy, so why try?

But to clarify: You are asking for a completed tied up, wrapped with ribbon plan, what I offered are ideas to be discussed, refined and improved on. I showed how some people are approaching similiar situations and a possible mission statement.

If I were to do all the work, give a full worked plan and present it, still no one would be satisfied.

But good post, it reminds me of Bush's campaign though fear.

One thing I have not grasped since I read it the first time is this, what does business 101 and degrees in business have to do with consumer fraud and criminal justice? The principles for one just dont apply to the other.

As I said earlier, the biggest defense you have against getting ripped off is to educate yourself about any company or person you plan on doing business with. That is just plain common sense and exactly what every consumer fraud and protection agency from the attorney generals office on down will tell you. Research a company before you give them your money.

This does not only apply to the reptile industry but every industry there is. I dont care if it is home repairs, auto repair, buying a house, buying a car, buying a PC, investing in the stock market, a cell phone plan, etc, etc, etc. Research before you buy, know what you are getting into and spend your money with a reputable entity with a good track record. It is a simple thing to do yet so many fail to do so or as in this case with Deb, they try to make things more complicated than it needs to be.

Simply educate yourself and research before you hand over your money. It will eliminate 98.9% of all scammers.