Selective spider breeding

Originally Posted by LadyOhh

I have greatly enjoyed this thread, and have discussed it with several other people as well... A topic dear to my own heart.

So my other Devil's advocate question is this...

There is a theory spinning around cyber space that spiders that are "clean" (no alien heads) exhibit the trait of wobbling/spinning much more often than those with more pattern to them (dots on the sides, etc).

Does anyone have a comment on that?

No wobble and no spots.
And I can touch her nose without her going into convulsions (or biting me). She's a pig but prefers the taste of rats over me.

Originally Posted by Clay Davenport

Herein will lie your problem though. If your spider does produce offspring with the wobble, then your female will be shown to possess the gene that causes wobbling, in whatever form it might be. If your intent is to attempt to get rid of the gene and develop a wobble free breeding group, then your female must be retired as well.

Absolutely, she would have to be retired and her offspring not bred.

And I'll work my other projects and look for another wobble-free Spider to try out down the line. Yes, it's a risk. Thanks for the well wishes. I'm more worried about the Caramel project than I am this one. I sure hope my Spider girlie does well next year. Great opportunity & risk usually go together.

Originally Posted by LadyOhh

I have greatly enjoyed this thread, and have discussed it with several other people as well... A topic dear to my own heart.

So my other Devil's advocate question is this...

There is a theory spinning around cyber space that spiders that are "clean" (no alien heads) exhibit the trait of wobbling/spinning much more often than those with more pattern to them (dots on the sides, etc).

Does anyone have a comment on that?

Here's my girl; named Cincomy as she was born 050505





PS Steve, your Spider ROCKS!

Here is Sam, my non-wobble spider.


This is Hepburn, my wobble-head. She really is sweet.

I guess the point is there are two fundamentally different models for what might be going on here. On one side is the idea that some separate gene (not the mutation gene we want) is causing spiders to spin and caramels to kink. If that is the case then ruthless culling should be the answer.

The other model is that spinning and kinking are just one of the several tendencies inherent to the spider and caramel mutant genes themselves. If this is the case perhaps your decision will be that these morphs should not be bred. Alternatively, you could try to figure out why some report large numbers of non spinning spiders and non kinking caramels in the hopes there is some way to suppress the genetic tendency of the mutation.

The first step is to ascertain if there really is a significant variation from collection to collection. The two claims to the effect that all spiders have it to some extent that I referenced where both from big breeders. One juvenile spider that may not have shown it yet doesn’t mean much but there are claims from spider breeders of not seeing it in groups of animals. There was also a claim by a fair sized caramel breeder of no kinks. If any of these claims are true and not just a blind eye to marketing they offer some hope. What is different about these collections? Could a simple supplement make all the difference?

Theresa,

Both are very cute. I don't know enough about the defect, but note the joined dark out-line on Hepburn's head? Heard that a connected head outline was something to avoid...

Note that all 3 "non-wobblers" have a break in this outline? I don't know, this business can be so darn secretive- drives me nuts!

I do hope someone does figure out the true nature of the defect just as much as I hope my girl & her offspring prove out wobble-free along with your boy & Steve's too, of course!

Deb, can you elaborate? I'm trying to see what you mean about the photos.

As for everyone else, the photos you post are of NON-wobblers?

Originally Posted by LadyOhh

Deb, can you elaborate? I'm trying to see what you mean about the photos.

As for everyone else, the photos you post are of NON-wobblers?

Yes. Theresa's female Hepburn was the only one that was a wobbler.

This one has no wobble at all so I don't think it has anything to do with a reduced pattern or having a lot of white. I am curious about the head outline being connected though.

Back when I was looking to buy... I had been hearing a bit of rumors about "problems" with the Spider. At the time Kevin (NERD) had most the spiders but some had been sold off. I posted in the BC forums, Kingsnake & other places... the theory about the wobble ranged from "excessive line breeding" to "well there's your Super" (the later a rather interesting case NOT to try to produce a homozygous Spider).

If the true nature of the defect was known at the time, no one came right out with it- Spiders had hiccuped down under 10K but 5-7K was still a chunk of change. I remember that there was an interactive discussion about Spiders (on Kingsnake I believe)...

I asked what everyone "looked for" in a Spider. I paid attention when this was replied to- some liked high white some said low white with the "thinner" web markings... and more than one biggie mentioned a break in the head pattern as desireable. Does it mean anything? I DON'T know, but I find it interesting that all photos of the non-wobblers have breaks in the outlines on their heads.

If anyone has a non-wobble head Spider with a connected head pattern like Hepburn, I hope they post... it's be too easy to have that be a visual marker of trouble wouldn't it?

I believe that the double expression of the gene should be avoided. Cornnut, do the Pastel & Spider gene share locus or ? Do you think the defect could be due to the homozygous expression of the Spider gene (instead of homozygous lethal, it's a homozygous "gimp" so to speak?).

PS
Cornnut, The Caramel issue IMO may well be linked to a calcium deficiency... more like a predisposed difficulty in absorbing calcium- what do are your thoughts on that? If true then supplementation may prevent the defect.

The existence of killer bees proves that pastel and spider are at different loci. Actually, as quickly and often as they have been produced tends to indicate that the spider and pastel mutations aren't even on the same chromosome, at least not very close together if on the same.

I don't think there have been enough spider X spider breedings to account for the spinners. In fact, the average spider might be more outbred than the average egg pulled out of the wild. For whatever reason there doesn't seem to be much interest in breeding spider X spider any more and I'm not sure much was ever done in comparison with all the spider X normal clutches.

One thing that I think is interesting is the idea that some spiders start and stop spinning at different times in their life. Like a lot of the information on this subject it's hard to know what to believe. The pattern would be set by hatching time so if there is a link between pattern and spinning then that would tend to indicate some early development variable or gene penetrance or what the mother was fed or something like that. However, if all appearances of spiders can stop or start spinning at different times it might be more likely some environmental variable like a nutrient in their diet that could be used to control the problem in any spider at any time in its life.

With caramels I believe it has to be some variable that has worked by the time they hatch (either kinked or not). If there are some producing large numbers of not kinked caramels it would be interesting to know what they are feeding their rodents. Could calcium or folic acid make a difference? Maybe in both cases something needs to be avoided that normals can tolerate better? To complicate the caramel picture I understand there may be several new variations of caramel that in some cases appear to be compatible but consistently look different. Perhaps there are multiple mutant versions of the gene at the caramel locus (and I'm still not sure this isn't also the regular albino locus - i.e. I don't think caramel and regular albino have been proven not compatible yet). Maybe there will be a version that doesn't have the kinking side effect and culling will result in it eventually replacing the one that does.