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Old 06-04-2021, 09:28 PM   #11
Socratic Monologue
Originally Posted by geckoejon View Post
This should be on a discussion page....
Ack, you're right -- we all messed up here. If a mod has a minute, would they please move this thread to the appropriate section? Thank you, and sorry for the bother.
Old 06-04-2021, 09:49 PM   #12
Thank you geckoejon! The point that I made very clearly, restated here again in direct terms so that perhaps it gets across, is this: If you don't like hybrids, fine, say so and state your case why. Trying to shame MasonP13 in to adopting your viewpoint is NEVER going to work, makes you look bad, and makes people with legitimate questions less likely to ask them on this forum. Throwing weak personal jabs at me because I was lobbying for more respectful interaction, is well...Iíll leave that alone :0)
Old 06-05-2021, 08:35 AM   #13
Attention MadisonP13 I would buy a pair of offspring of said breeding. (If not ridiculously priced) I own several hybrids, plan on breeding them and selling them in the future. I also will be labeling them as such so that there is no misunderstanding going forward. Let me know if you are successful. Greg W
Old 06-05-2021, 01:35 PM   #14
Herpin Man
Originally Posted by gwreptii View Post
I also will be labeling them as such so that there is no misunderstanding going forward.
This is the core problem with hybrids. The original breeder may indeed label them accurately and honestly, but "going forward"- what about the buyers when they resell them? And when they are sold again? Or when they are bred with other snakes, how will those offspring be represented? You have no control over that, so of course, you can wash your hands of it, right?
Anyone who sincerely believes that future generations of these snakes will be properly represented as hybrids is deluding themselves.

"I just bought this snake at a show, what kind is it?"
"Looks like a milk snake. Nelson's, maybe?"
"Could be a Sinaloan"
Sound familiar?

There are already lots of hybrids floating around in the herp hobby, and with the possible exception of the first generation hybrids, they are virtually never presented as such. Newer herp keepers cannot reasonably be expected to know the back story on when a given species was bred to another, generations ago, to get a particular gene or trait into that species. Thus, continuing the cycle.
While it is true that these aren't being bred for conservation, I believe that the vast majority of herp hobbyists prefer to at least know what species they actually have, when they incorporate it into their breeding projects. Particularly as it becomes more and more difficult to obtain pure animals from the wild.
Personally, I resent the idea that I am at risk of unknowingly purchasing (and perpetuating) hybrids, simply because, years prior, someone thought it would be cool to breed a milk snake to a corn snake.
Old 06-05-2021, 08:17 PM   #15
Originally Posted by Socratic Monologue View Post
Look back at the thread. Read it from the beginning. Note the point at which it turned away from criticisms of herpkeeping methods and toward criticisms of people. Then think about what it takes to keep a thread on topic.

Listen, I realize it takes a lot of time to figure out where the hobby has been, and where it is now, and where it is going (and there are certainly old-timers who could whoop me at this kind of understanding -- thank God we have those people). Because of that, it is pretty harsh to come down on newer keepers in such a firm way. No secret about that.

But just because someone doesn't realize that if he pisses in the river he's ruining things for those people downstream doesn't mean that anyone should just hold his beer for him while he does it. And like it or not -- better: know it or not -- animal breeding is a river.

People upstream set things up so that now, for me and you, things are like they are. Could they have done better? Yes, absolutely, and distinctly in the area of the more common colubrids, many of which are genetic messes. Do we right now have the ability to make things better or worse for those standing downstream -- that is, future keepers? Absolutely.

Are future keepers going to wish we, now, had made more intergeneric hybrids? Perhaps a multi-generic thing that can only be called 'Colubrid' since all the genera went into (or maybe didn't; is there lineage info kept on any of these animals?) making it? Or are future keepers -- like serious keepers now -- going to wish that they had access to actual species? Actual species with natural history information, and habitat data, and a captive breeding history plan beyond 'yeah, this'll look cool' or 'I wonder how much I could charge for this'.

The OP has brought this up before, and knows that this is charged territory. The first time there were well-reasoned arguments. Go read those and see how reasonable people can be.

This isn't a new discussion, this hybridization speculation. On other forums, in face to face discussions, it comes up -- too often. It gets old for people who want the hobby to be something more than pretty animals, novelty animals by the very definition of novelty. If a reader can't look past some firm -- not abusive, or insulting, or even personally-directed, ahem -- language from those who see all the harm that comes of these sorts of poorly thought out projects, then the reader will not be happy, I guess.
Hey dude, I fully support you and everything y'all have said. I openly accept criticism. I know that certain morphs that are commonplace in the communities were only because of hybrids, but then the breeder line bred it like 5 generations before they even sold the offspring besides as "infertile pet only" and that's why we have Scaleless corns, and a few specific ball python morphs were only because of blood/retic genes pulled in decades back...

Now I do agree, that it does "muddy the gene pool" if we don't start listing the genetics, and some scumbag breeder sells them falsely as pure..
So, I say it'd be awesome if we got some ancestry kind of thing, to show people what the history of a snake genes are, as far back as the first person to start the ancestry thing.
And only when you buy a snake do you get a key to use on your website to link your snake to someone else's, genetic tree.

I respect your opinions, and I likely will keep ALL offspring as pets, if I go through with my project..

And I DEFINITELY do plan on going into conservation breeding, and making pure offspring, of snakes that can't be imported or are endangered in the wild ...
But with breeding two snakes that are both local to my state, and I've seen both sharing the same woods behind my house, it's not impossible to imagine a hybrid of the two to possibly happen... (And based on the looks of some that I've found when herping, I would not be surprised if they have a little mixed genes in them)
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Old 06-05-2021, 08:26 PM   #16
Originally Posted by gwreptii View Post
Attention MadisonP13 I would buy a pair of offspring of said breeding. (If not ridiculously priced) I own several hybrids, plan on breeding them and selling them in the future. I also will be labeling them as such so that there is no misunderstanding going forward. Let me know if you are successful. Greg W
Sweet dude! I wasn't sure what was "ridiculous" prices since there aren't many breeders out there to base prices on... I've seen some people sell hybrids for $1,000+ and some sell them for less than $100 if they didn't come out as pretty.. I'd be happy just to spread some sunshine and hopefully come out without breaking my bank..

Although I've seen one REALLY sexy hybrid at my local pet store I keep looking at but they were asking $2,000 for him for almost a year. Dropped their price to 1,750 and he was sold that week to some dude, apparently. It was (Cali king boy, corn mom) -> jungle corn girl, that was then crossed to a male milk snake. The mixed boy was humongous! And they had a card made listing the breeders each parent was from for the past 3 generations..

But 2 grand for that? It might have been gorgeous, but I would rather breed my own like that for a price like that...
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