local herp laws and shows

There has been a lot of discussion in the wake of the recent affairs at Lee Watsons reptile swap a week ago, and a question just came to me.

As a potential vendor at any swap, be it local for you or in another state.  How do you go about finding out the applicable laws for the animlas you sell.

I know that you can contact the local dnr or wildlife service or whatever the agency may be called, but sometimes you can get the run around, and sometimes you just can't get an answer.

My question is this. &nbsp;How realistic is it, or should it be to contact the show promoter to find out the laws? &nbsp;I would think that a show promoter should be expected to know all the applicable laws for selling reptiles in his/her state, and what permits would be needed. &nbsp;This would be to his/her benefit if nothing else. &nbsp;If I were to call a promoter and say &quot;I'd like to set up at your show, I would be selling <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>, is it legal to sell them? do I need special permits, if so what kind?&quot; &nbsp;Would I be out of line? &nbsp;I do think that the vendor would need to provide a list of what he/she would be selling rather than a blanket statement like &quot;what can I sell and what can't I sell?&quot; &nbsp; &nbsp;I know it should be up to the vendor to know the laws of the state, but I would think that a show promoter should be able to provide this information. &nbsp;

I would also think that any promoter would want to provide this info, or at least be able to prvide it if asked. &nbsp;If for no other reason than to possibly avoid something like what happened at Lee's. &nbsp;

This has nothing to do with Lee or his show, it is just a general question. &nbsp;

What do you all think?

Steve Schindler

Steve,

I agree that this would seem to be something that a promoter could do for his own show. &nbsp;After, it is a whole lot easier for him to get a list of acceptable/unacceptable practices once than for each of the vendors to have to do it individually.

HOWEVER, since it would be me, rather than the promoter, that would hauled off to jail if I violated the laws in some way (and saying, &quot;He told me it was OK!&quot; wouldn't work in court), I thin I would still want to find our for myself what was allowable in that particular &nbsp;location. &nbsp;So, I think, for me anway, the vendor's list would be a bit redundant.

Good idea, though --

Darin,

I thought of that, and I agree, I'd like to find out first hand for myself. &nbsp;Maybe the promoter could at least tell you what authorities you would need to contact to find the info.

I can see where promoters would not like to provide this info just to avoid the &quot;but you told me&quot; scenerio.

Steve Schindler

A good starting point is the book, A Field Guide to Reptiles and the Law, by Levell. Laws are constantly enacted, rescinded, and revised, so the information in the book may not necessarily be the most current. For the most part, though, the information is accurate. The book also contains contact information for every state and federal wildlife agency.

I just thought you might like to hear from a show promoter on this subject. &nbsp;
&nbsp;I run The Great Lakes Reptile and Amphibian Expo which also happens to be in Illinois. &nbsp;Unfortunately, it isn't any easier for me as a promoter to get the answers to these laws and regulations that we all are searching for. &nbsp;If you ask a general &quot;what do I need&quot; question, at best, you get a vague response the majority of the time. &nbsp;
I spend alot of time on the websites of these agencies, trying to make sense of the laws I find that may apply to myself or my vendors. &nbsp;As we all know, these laws are written so loosely, the answer to your questions may be dependent on whom you ask. &nbsp;
&nbsp;For example, one of my vendors wanted to bring baby tortoises to the show. &nbsp;Now, we are all familiar with the 4&quot; turtle rule, but I said I would double check to see if that law also applied to tortoises. &nbsp;I started with the Dept. of Agriculture. &nbsp;They said this was not their law, try the Fish and Wildlife who in turn said not their business. &nbsp;Call the FDA. &nbsp;The FDA guy hemmed and hawed about interpretation and finally admitted he just did not know if the law was applicable to tortoises. &nbsp;He told me to call another agency (I can't remember who) Who also did not have a clue. &nbsp;So I called the FDA guy back again, and told him this was their law, and I wanted an answer. &nbsp;He told me that after we spoke the first time, he looked up tortoise in the dictionary and it says &quot;land dwelling turtle&quot; &nbsp;So by definition, tortoises would in fact have to go by the same 4&quot; law. &nbsp;
This was the most ridiculous logic I had ever heard, as a tortoise realistically would have the same health risk as a gecko or bearded.
However silly it sounded, I had to abide by what he said, and I had to tell the vendor no tortoises under 4&quot;. &nbsp;

The point is, I guess, that as long as the laws remain vague, we will all be left wondering if in the end, could someone twist the words just enough to suit their purpose. &nbsp;

I firmly believe that it is as much the promoters responsibility to know as much of the laws as possible, and/or help the vendors to find the answers. &nbsp;It is a plus for a promoter to have a good relationship with these authorities also, so we can show them we aren't trying to pull a fast one when there is a discrepancy. &nbsp;We need to stick together, and admit we don't have all the answers whether we like the laws or not, or the laws will never change. &nbsp;

We also need a few authorities in these agencies that know the business of reptiles =)
Jennifer Bos

At local shows here in NY the promoters always seem to let the vendors know what can and cannot be sold. For instance they warn vendors frequently about turtles &amp; tortoises having to be over 4 inches (yes the law applies to both as far as I know unless being sold for legitimate scientific or educational purposes), they also do not allow selling of native species (which I do not understand because native species are legal to sell in NY state (as per email I received from the NYS Department of Environmental Conservation), they warn against selling any threatened or endangered species (both on the federal list and state list), and they do not permit sales of venomous animals (although scorpions always seem to be there for sale as of late the vendors are warned they will be shut down if they persist in selling them). The promoters are also certain to hand out state required salmonella warnings to each vendor for distribution with each individual sale. Recently I saw a promoter at a local show threaten to bar a person from selling if he did not remove small turtles he had for sale - the turtles disappeared pretty quickly. (By the way the law prohibits sale of the turtles, not possession - just in case you did not know this tidbit.)

It does not appear that it is a secret up this way about which animals you can and cannot sell. That goes for a show or two I have been to in NJ and also in Maryland. It was obvious what could and could not be offered for sale. Some of the rules are federal, some are state, and some are the rules of the promoter. Now while that could get confusing, it seems, at least up this way, that the promoters are pretty much on the ball about this stuff. I am pretty certain that if they allowed illegal sales to persist at the shows they promote, they would be out of business quickly. I don't know how it works out in the Midwest, or what happened at Lee Watson's swap meet - but I do believe that the promoter should be in the know about what he can and cannot promote - and in effect what you can and cannot sell at s show he is promoting.

One last note: if you have doubts about a law, take the time and effort to write real letters to the agencies of which you inquire. Don't send emails, instead send paper and request a timely written response. Someone will write back, and when they do you have their answer in writing on government letterhead. If they said you can sell it, and you later get hassled or arrested or fined - you have a darn good piece of evidence in your favor in that piece of paper they sent to you.

Here is the FDA text. Unless I misunderstand it if you are a business you cannot even possess turtles under 4 in. to sell as pets.



[Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 21, Volume 8]
[Revised as of April 1, 2002]
From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 21CFR1240.62]

[Page 663-665]

&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;TITLE 21--FOOD AND DRUGS

CHAPTER I--FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;SERVICES (CONTINUED)

PART 1240--CONTROL OF COMMUNICABLE DISEASES--Table of Contents

Subpart D--Specific Administrative Decisions Regarding Interstate
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Shipments

Sec. 1240.62 Turtles intrastate and interstate requirements.

&nbsp; &nbsp; (a) Definition. As used in this section the term ``turtles''
includes all animals commonly known as turtles, tortoises, terrapins,
and all other animals of the order Testudinata, class Reptilia, except
marine species (families Dermachelidae and Chelonidae).
&nbsp; &nbsp; (b) Sales; general prohibition. Except as otherwise provided in this
section, viable turtle eggs and live turtles with a carapace length of
less than 4 inches shall not be sold, held for sale, or offered for any
other type of commercial or public distribution.
&nbsp; &nbsp; &copy; Destruction of turtles or turtle eggs; criminal penalties. (1)
Any viable turtle eggs or live turtles with a carapace length of less
than 4 inches which are held for sale or offered for any other type of
commercial or public distribution shall be subject to destruction in a
humane manner by or under the supervision of an officer or employee of
the Food and Drug Administration in accordance with the following
procedures:
&nbsp; &nbsp; (i) Any District Office of the Food and Drug Administration, upon
detecting viable turtle eggs or live turtles with a carapace length of
less than 4 inches which are held for sale or offered for any other type
of commercial

[[Page 664]]

or public distribution, shall serve upon the person in whose possession
such turtles or turtle eggs are found a written demand that such turtles
or turtle eggs be destroyed in a humane manner under the supervision of
said District Office, within 10 working days from the date of
promulgation of the demand. The demand shall recite with particularity
the facts which justify the demand. After service of the demand, the
person in possession of the turtles or turtle eggs shall not sell,
distribute, or otherwise dispose of any of the turtles or turtle eggs
except to destroy them under the supervision of the District Office,
unless and until the Director of the Center for Food Safety and Applied
Nutrition withdraws the demand for destruction after an appeal pursuant
to paragraph &copy;(1)(ii) of this section.
&nbsp; &nbsp; (ii) The person on whom the demand for destruction is served may
either comply with the demand or, within 10 working days from the date
of its promulgation, appeal the demand for destruction to the Director
of the Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition, Food and Drug
Administration, 5100 Paint Branch Pkwy., College Park, MD 20740. The
demand for destruction may also be appealed within the same period of 10
working days by any other person having a pecuniary interest in such
turtles or turtle eggs. In the event of such an appeal, the Center
Director shall provide an opportunity for hearing by written notice to
the appellant(s) specifying a time and place for the hearing, to be held
within 14 days from the date of the notice but not within less than 7
days unless by agreement with the appellant(s).
&nbsp; &nbsp; (iii) Appearance by any appellant at the hearing may be by mail or
in person, with or without counsel. The hearing shall be conducted by
the Center Director or his designee, and a written summary of the
proceedings shall be prepared by the person presiding. Any appellant
shall have the right to hear and to question the evidence on which the
demand for destruction is based, including the right to cross-examine
witnesses, and he may present oral or written evidence in response to
the demand.
&nbsp; &nbsp; (iv) If, based on the evidence presented at the hearing, the Center
Director finds that the turtles or turtle eggs were held for sale or
offered for any other type of commercial or public distribution in
violation of this section, he shall affirm the demand that they be
destroyed under the supervision of an officer or employee of the Food
and Drug Administration; otherwise, the Center Director shall issue a
written notice that the prior demand by the District Office is
withdrawn. If the Center Director affirms the demand for destruction he
shall order that the destruction be accomplished in a humane manner
within 10 working days from the date of the promulgation of his
decision. The Center Director's decision shall be accompanied by a
statement of the reasons for the decision. The decision of the Center
Director shall constitute final agency action, reviewable in the courts.
&nbsp; &nbsp; (v) If there is no appeal to the Director of the Center for Food
Safety and Applied Nutrition from the demand by the Food and Drug
Administration District Office and the person in possession of the
turtles or turtle eggs fails to destroy them within 10 working days, or
if the demand is affirmed by the Director of the Center for Food Safety
and Applied Nutrition after an appeal and the person in possession of
the turtles or turtle eggs fails to destroy them within 10 working days,
the District Office shall designate an officer or employee to destroy
the turtles or turtle eggs. It shall be unlawful to prevent or to
attempt to prevent such destruction of turtles or turtle eggs by the
officer or employee designated by the District Office. Such destruction
will be stayed if so ordered by a court pursuant to an action for review
in the courts as provided in paragraph &copy;(1)(iv) of this section.
&nbsp; &nbsp; (2) Any person who violates any provision of this section, including
but not limited to any person who sells, offers for sale, or offers for
any other type of commercial or public distribution viable turtle eggs
or live turtles with a carapace length of less than 4 inches, or who
refuses to comply with a valid final demand for destruction of turtles
or turtle eggs (either an unappealed demand by an FDA District Office or
a demand which has been affirmed by the Director of the Center for Food
Safety

[[Page 665]]

and Applied Nutrition pursuant to appeal), or who fails to comply with
the requirement in such a demand that the manner of destruction be
humane, shall be subject to a fine of not more than $1,000 or
imprisonment for not more than 1 year, or both, for each violation, in
accordance with section 368 of the Public Health Service Act (42 U.S.C.
271).
&nbsp; &nbsp; (d) Exceptions. The provisions of this section are not applicable
to:
&nbsp; &nbsp; (1) The sale, holding for sale, and distribution of live turtles and
viable turtle eggs for bona fide scientific, educational, or
exhibitional purposes, other than use as pets.
&nbsp; &nbsp; (2) The sale, holding for sale, and distribution of live turtles and
viable turtle eggs not in connection with a business.
&nbsp; &nbsp; (3) The sale, holding for sale, and distribution of live turtles and
viable turtle eggs intended for export only, provided that the outside
of the shipping package is conspicuously labeled ``For Export Only.''
&nbsp; &nbsp; (4) Marine turtles excluded from this regulation under the
provisions of paragraph (a) of this section and eggs of such turtles.
&nbsp; &nbsp; (e) Petitions. The Commissioner of Food and Drugs, either on his own
initiative or on behalf of any interested person who has submitted a
petition, may publish a proposal to amend this regulation. Any such
petition shall include an adequate factual basis to support the
petition, and will be published for comment if it contains reasonable
grounds for the proposed regulation. A petition requesting such a
regulation, which would amend this regulation, shall be submitted to the
Dockets Management Branch, Food and Drug Administration, rm. 1-23, 12420
Parklawn Dr., Rockville, MD 20857.

[40 FR 22545, May 23, 1975, as amended at 46 FR 8461, Jan. 27, 1981; 48
FR 11431, Mar. 18, 1983; 54 FR 24900, June 12, 1989; 59 FR 14366, Mar.
28, 1994; 66 FR 56035, Nov. 6, 2001]

Bryan,

The most important aspect of your statement are the last four words, &quot;to sell as pets.&quot;

It IS legal to keep them for sale to bona fide scientific, educational, or exhibition circumstances. &nbsp;If someone was to show up at an expo with turtles with carapices less than 4&quot; in length, they would simply need to have a sign there that these animals are only for sale to bona fide scientific, educational, or exhibition endeavors, but not as pets. &nbsp;

Now, what does &quot;bona fide&quot; entail? &nbsp;How could you determine the reson for the sale? &nbsp;I'm not certain. &nbsp;Perhaps a teaching certificate for a school teacher looking for a classroom project? &nbsp;Whatever the case, it is seems true that however hard it is for you to prove that the purpose IS for bona fide science, education, or exhibits, I'm sure it is just as difficult (if not moreso) for the authorities to prove that it ISN'T.

Just some thoughts --

I don't want to get into a rehashing of the events at Lee Watson's but I do have to respond to one of Darins comments

He said &nbsp;&quot;If someone was to show up at an expo with turtles with carapices less than 4&quot; in length, they would simply need to have a sign there that these animals are only for sale to bona fide scientific, educational, or exhibition endeavors, but not as pets.&quot;

This is exactly what was posted on all of the table containing turtles under 4&quot;s but the citations were still issued. &nbsp;It remains to be seen if such a disclaimer is all that is required.

Steve Schindler

Actually Steve, there is no runaround and it is a cop out to assume that it will be difficult to get any needed info from state government. Any state department of agriculture that I have ever contacted to get copies of laws, permit aps, etc (12 states so far:MI, IN, IL, OH, TN, NY, PA, FL, GA, AZ, MO and CA) have all been very helpful and happy to either send out the paperwork that day or fax it to me right then. I have also gone through the process with several states of obtaining transport/sales permits. Always relatively painless and without major hassle.

On the federal level, in the past 15 years I have requested animal law info on seven occasions and on every one I received the requested info in a couple days via first class mail. Very simple and very easy. By law, they have to give you any info you request as it is all public record and usually if you are nice to them, just like in any other situation, they will be pleasant with you and get the paperwork right out. As a licensed importer/exporter the federal government also sends me periodic updates that are available to anyone upon request, on regulation changes.

I also have gone through the native/protected species paperwork in the state of Illinois and they were great! Everything was done via fax in a matter of hours. Evan Stahl