The Columbus Reptile show was Raided by Fish&wildlife officers

I have to agree with Evan here, as much as I feel that PIJAC is a worthwhile organization and a great source of information, and probably very much worth a donation, they do not solve the problem. As an individual who at the present has only reptiles and any future business will be with reptiles I am looking for an entity that primarly concerns itself with the reptile trade. Or more simple put will PIJAC be able to fight a worthwhile battle for an excemption of albino black ratsnake from the laws pertaining to black ratsnakes. PIJAC is another voice to be heard but in concert with the herp community not to rely on it in its own right.

What we are getting is a government organization (state DNR)that is taking the laws vague terminology and using it to its own end. Ohio isnt banning reptiles, their just making it so hard to own them that its almost the same thing. And forget about bringing any into the state for sale that fit into classification of native. And then you wonder if the next step is stop internet sales to the state of OH by forcing them to adhere to the same laws. Use of a simple term of "imported into the state" has a far reaching potential.

We need volunteers to work as liaisons between the herp societies. Were going to need atleast(preferably more) one person from each state who has some extra time and doesn’t mind a few extra dollars on their long distance phone bills. What we are going to start doing is contacting each herp society within your state and letting them know of our presence. Compile a full list of every herp society that is out there. Get a web site up and running with all the herp societies and all the local and state laws for each state so people will know their rights as they stand. From there get all the info on laws and legislation working against us and a line the herp societies to get their members active in fighting these laws.

So what well need is people who don’t mind spending some extra time to start contacting the herp societies within their state. If a law pops up within your state or county well need you to find the actual proposed law, all the info pertaining to the time, date and place it is to be heard. Contact info for the author of the law and any other senator’s, local officials etc that will be hearing the law and can be contacted concerning the proposed law. From that point we get the word out to anyone and everyone we can. Contact all the herp societies within that state and try to get as many people their present as we can when the proposed law is being reviewed. The simple fact of the matter is if we don’t do something and NOW! Some day these forums will be filled with “remember back when I had that boa”. We have a lot of huge groups working against us that have man power and money. We got the man power we just need to get everyone working to together.

Anyone interested in helping or anyone who has ideas how to make this more effective please email me. Also anyone who knows of a herp society please email and let me know how to contact them. Not all herp societies can be found on the web. So till I can get enough people up and running I will start compiling this info. Also anyone who knows of a state or local law in effect or that is being pushed through that can forward me that info I would appreciate that as well. Also I could use a web designer that doesn’t mind volunteering time. If you interesting in help please send me you phone number within the email so I can call you.

I will be posting this in many different forums on different sites and will not be able to respond and or read every reply in all the places I will post it, I will do my best to go back and check everyone but if you feel you have anything that may be of help please email it along with posting the info. Without Thousands of dollars to start this I don’t see any other way we can effectively fight these laws aside from setting up a volunteer liaison in ever state and using the already established resources there. So please we have to get this together.

The is a bill now being passed in Louisiana and the way it is written up they are giving the department of wildlife and fish full authority to drafts laws they see fit pertaining to all constrictors and venomous species or reptiles. If it is passed it could have a detrimental effect on everyone of us. You may not think Louisiana laws have anything to do with you, but think about how many customers you have or may in the future lose there. Also laws like these can be used as examples within other states! Your state may be next! Thanks for your time, Jason

http://www.legis.state.la.us/leg_doc...T/0000KMD0.PDF

Jason, I am glad that you want to help but I really believe you are going in a bad direction. Herp societies are a thing of the past. The big strong organizations are all now very small and poorly attended. Between herp shows and the internet, most people don't feel they have any reason to be in one anymore. NOAH in Ohio and MSH in Michigan used to have hundreds of members years ago and would have an enormous mailing list. These days they have less than a hundred active members and have little influence on things.

I still tell you all that the way to go is simple. Get as many people as you can to give their name/address/email/phone number info to one master list. This list can then be used as a big head start for petitions and signature drives in any state/county/city. To get enough people you need to sign people up at herp shows and pet shops all over the country. To accomplish this, you need to do it via the net and send people to the site via notices everywhere. Fliers, ads, emails, snail mail, etc. I am still looking into doing this. It is about the only way to go. For those of you that have never tried to get people involved in something against government legislation before, let me tell you here, it is very very hard to do. People do not want to be involved for fear that if it goes poorly they have given themselves away as a potential target as well as people who know that they are violating laws and do not want to advertise the fact to the government. It has a lot of downside and takes some courage.

Even going to a busy mall or shopping center and gathering signatures and info for future use is a good idea. It is all a numbers game. You need to get as many people as possible to give you their info. You could get more people at one large herp show than you will get from a handful of herp societies.

I have been getting a bunch of emails and phone calls from people who want to help and that is great, but there are so many of you talking about doing your own thing to help that it is just doing more splintering. There needs to just be one organisation, not 3 or 4. That only weakens us, stretching things out further. One united front is how the war needs to be won. Anyone that wants to gather support, start doing that. Wether it is me or somebody else we will get one path going in the right direction. We just need to pull everybody together. Breeders, dealers, show promoters, importers, hobbiests, website operators, pet shop owners, etc, etc. It is time that people have to be made to realize that it is now or never. We can stand up and be counted and fight the fight or become law breakers hiding herps in our house and not letting anyone know that we have them. That is what is happening in most of Europe now. Many countries, including England, have banned herp shows, restricted herp sales and herp keeping. Banning the majority of animals not because they are native or endangered but because the government feels people should not have them. I do not think any of you want that to happen here.

I have to disagree in regards to the statements involving herp societies. The problem has always been in two main areas...1)Most are not societies, they are a group of 3-5 people making decisions for the other 40 plus members. 2) Members are too busy playing with egos... We are putting together a regional herp
society this week. We will have members from three counties. The initial meeting alone will have over 20 SERIOUS breeders and herpers. (That will be just to map our directions and goals)They all know to check their egos at the door and how to get down to business!!! I agree that numbers will be important to sway lawmakers however, a handful of SERIOUS, INTELLIGENT, INFORMED people with backgrounds in public matters can convince more people than a 100 uninformed people and faceless signatures.(Not that we don't need the support!) Also, we definately need a SINGLE unified strong voice!!! All factions will be important on this. I recall seeing a thread about the laws regarding pit bulls in N.Y. We have a fairly large industry in regards to herp support companies as well!(Cages, lighting,vitamins, food etc. etc.) I'm sure this would impact them as well as the everyday hobbiest! Well, if I had more time I'd love
to elaborate more but, right now we'll leave it as," food for
thought!"


Thanks Ray Goushaw HBR www.herpbreedingresearch.com

Here is the ODNR's own press release. also states everyone that was charged and what the charges were.

http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/news/jul03/0702eandt.htm

"What we've seized will be put back in the wild in their (rightful) habitat. There's a niche those reptiles fill," Reda said.
__________________________________________________ __


A reptile or amphibian that has been captively produced or is not native to Ohio may not be released into the wild. Only
reptiles/amphibians that were taken from the wild may be released back into the wild and only if:

• they have not been held in captivity, in the same
enclosure, with any other reptile or amphibian, except
when used as a food for another captive reptile or
amphibian, and
• they have not been in captivity for more than 30 days,
and
• they are released near the point of capture, or, you first
have written authorization from the chief of the Division
of Wildlife.

(copied directly from ODNR's reptile regulations)

http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/wildlife/license/pub3_02.htm

Also the press stated that Texas rat snakes and a black mamba was seized. what laws were either breaking? the ONLY laws in Ohio pertain to native species. Have the laws changed? Or do they just need to reread there own administrative code? Here is the link to the complete regulation pamphlet(in PDF) that they distributed to the public in layman's terms.

http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/wildlife/PDF/pub03.pdf

(the actual Ohio revised code and Ohio administrative code that this pamphlet was taken from is actually easier to read and makes more sence to me)

the only problem I ever had with these laws was the fact that the 10 gauge needle used to insert the PIT tags is not safe to use with some of our smaller natives at 18 inch. such as the ribbon, ringneck, garter , rough green snakes ect.(IMHO) the other problem I have is they need to make acceptations for Cb native morphs if they can be documented as being CB and purchased from out of state. such as other states with similar laws do.

to change laws like these we need leadership and organization I'm willing to help with any good ideas just email me

Also the press stated that Texas rat snakes and a black mamba was seized. what laws were either breaking? the ONLY laws in Ohio pertain to native species.

Unless I am mistaken, the mamba was confiscated in Indiana, not Ohio.
Likewise the comment in the DNR report about the collector allegedly taking 2000 snakes in 3 days makes no mention that that supposed activity happened out west while the guy was on vacation, and not in Ohio.

Likewise the comment in the DNR report about the collector allegedly taking 2000 snakes in 3 days makes no mention that that supposed activity happened out west while the guy was on vacation, and not in Ohio.

I am assuming that at least some of the 2000 snakes were of species found in Ohio even if not collected there. If he did collect them legaly outside of Ohio, what kind of documentation did he provide? More importantly, for future reference, what kind of documentation could you provide to prove that these were legally collected for out of state.

Steve Schindler

As best as I can tell from the news reports the person claiming to have collected those snakes was not implicated in the raids, he just made the statement to DNR.
They in turn used the quote in several news articles and in their report. The only basis I can see for doing that was to add a bit of sensationalism to the story, and to make things out to be a huge problem, and thereby giving weight to their case for intervention.

I personally doubt that the guy actually collected that many snakes in 3 days.

Here is an example of the use of this story. This quote was from Jim Lehman, district manager of the Ohio Division of Wildlife in Columbus.

"Until we began our investigation we had no idea the reptile trade was such a big business," said Lehman.

"Dealers travel state to state and some had a lot of confidence that they are untouchable," he said. "We talked to collectors who took so many of a species of reptile that there were no more left in the wild in certain areas. One collector took a vacation to western states and collected 2,000 snakes in three days."

Looks to me like he's using unsubstantiated statements he supposedly was given during the course of the undercover investigation to inflate the idea that these are people who practice wholesale rape on native herp populations..