Can We Enforce a Higher Level of Accountablity?

Originally Posted by shrap

One thing I have not grasped since I read it the first time is this, what does business 101 and degrees in business have to do with consumer fraud and criminal justice? The principles for one just dont apply to the other.

As I said earlier, the biggest defense you have against getting ripped off is to educate yourself about any company or person you plan on doing business with. That is just plain common sense and exactly what every consumer fraud and protection agency from the attorney generals office on down will tell you. Research a company before you give them your money.

This does not only apply to the reptile industry but every industry there is. I dont care if it is home repairs, auto repair, buying a house, buying a car, buying a PC, investing in the stock market, a cell phone plan, etc, etc, etc. Research before you buy, know what you are getting into and spend your money with a reputable entity with a good track record. It is a simple thing to do yet so many fail to do so or as in this case with Deb, they try to make things more complicated than it needs to be.

Simply educate yourself and research before you hand over your money. It will eliminate 98.9% of all scammers.

It has absolutely nothing to do with anything..and no application with this thread..a simple retort to someone that said my ideads/concepts were Business 101 and I thought that was amusing.

If the biggest defense against getting ripped off is research, that's the biggest defense against any kind of hurt done on the victim be it scamming, or any other crime. If it is so simple why do we need laws? Why can't eveyone just research before everything? It may prevent all the murders, (extreme example) and other kinds of crimes. My point is that sometimes more needs to be done.

Now I have read all the posts and a lot of them have good points..but if you don't want more laws, if you are advocating doing nothing at all and hoping that the radar of those that don't like reptiles passes us over, then good luck. Maybe it will.

If as Bryon said, we are already on the radar...let's keep very quiet...maybe they'll go away.

Originally Posted by deborahbroadus

Thank you for your opinion.

I don't know, maybe I am seeing it differently; I do not think laws even MORE laws that prevent the internet scammers or at least gives an organization authority to resolve issues is "stupid." I was not thinking of more regulatory laws on the reptile trade per se..but laws specifically aimed at the scammers..selling online.

The reference to the ADA was the fact that it started out as an idea, most great things did, still do, and I am sure that others thought those that had the idea were "spinning their wheels;" a lot of people do think that it's pointless to try and accomplish anything though laws.

The ideas may be Business 101 concepts; I did graduate with a Bachelor of Science in Business Administration and I am currently on haitus from getting my MA...so if you recognized the percepts..that means I learned my textbooks well.

Since you agree that scammers should be held accoutable what's your idea? How do you think we should go about it?

Deborah, Ideas are a good thing but when trying to get people on board an idea it has to be something that does a little something for everyone.

I'm not going to get into all the points of your Idea...You mention new laws will help solve our problems yet most here I think will agree that we don't need new laws. There are millions of laws in this country many contradict other laws and new laws are added all the time, so many that you can be sure that knowingly or not you break one or more every day of your life.

Last I checked it was illegal to steal from someone else IE the Scammers your talking about are already breaking laws. Many who are scammed don't do much about it and those who try find out that the amount involved ETC ETC isn't really worth Law enforcements attention so little or nothing is done.. Making New Laws wont change that, there would be just one or more new laws to add to the untold numbers that are not enforced.

You put out your Idea and asked for comments and now seem terribly upset that everyone here didn't jump for joy at your ideas and that some here have taken the time to point out the flaws as they see them in your idea.

The way I see it is making new laws would just be fluff and no answer to any of the problems we have.. Randy

Originally Posted by deborahbroadus

Sigh..I didn't answer them because it appeared clear to me that you were just trying to "score." You took a statement out of context and got offended when it wasn't aimed at you, and the rest of the post just seems geared not to encourage teamwork, but to shoot someone down. Nothing I can say would satisfy, so why try?

But to clarify: You are asking for a completed tied up, wrapped with ribbon plan, what I offered are ideas to be discussed, refined and improved on. I showed how some people are approaching similiar situations and a possible mission statement.

If I were to do all the work, give a full worked plan and present it, still no one would be satisfied.

But good post, it reminds me of Bush's campaign though fear.

I don't run campaigns nor do I feel the need to " score ". There are folks responding to your posts with valid questions , ideas and possibilities. You either don't answer those questions or wrap yourself up in " You're trying to attack me " crap. Were you expecting everyone to jump on the bandwagon?

How are my posts encouraging no team work? I asked questions and I gave possibilities. Wasn't that something you learned in Business 101?

How encouraging is it that you give you up so easily and wrap yourself up in attacks that don't exist?

I don't think I did take a statement out of context. I think you said what you meant and generalized those that don't agree with you. YOU brought this to the table , WE are asking questions but instead of even trying to answer to answer YOU go on the defensive and call it an attack. Lets just forget that some of those that have responded have already fought regulation , that they've been around longer than both of us and have seen changes , both positive and negative. Lets overlook the remotest possibility that they may even speak from levels of experience or research that YOU haven't even touched yet.

Feel free to flop around with your idea and ignore the questions the should be asked or researched. Your idea , run with it.

If as Bryon said, we are already on the radar...let's keep very quiet...maybe they'll go away.

Where did I say we were on the radar? Taking a comment out of context is one thing , to say someone said something they didn't is quite another. I learn more and more about you with every post.

Originally Posted by ravensgait

Deborah, Ideas are a good thing but when trying to get people on board an idea it has to be something that does a little something for everyone.

I'm not going to get into all the points of your Idea...You mention new laws will help solve our problems yet most here I think will agree that we don't need new laws. There are millions of laws in this country many contradict other laws and new laws are added all the time, so many that you can be sure that knowingly or not you break one or more every day of your life.

Last I checked it was illegal to steal from someone else IE the Scammers your talking about are already breaking laws. Many who are scammed don't do much about it and those who try find out that the amount involved ETC ETC isn't really worth Law enforcements attention so little or nothing is done.. Making New Laws wont change that, there would be just one or more new laws to add to the untold numbers that are not enforced.

You put out your Idea and asked for comments and now seem terribly upset that everyone here didn't jump for joy at your ideas and that some here have taken the time to point out the flaws as they see them in your idea.

The way I see it is making new laws would just be fluff and no answer to any of the problems we have.. Randy

Lord, will people please stop projecting and looking for a scapegoat? OK the idea wasn't well though out!! Oh my lord!! I forgot to contact senators, and get them on board, I forgot to investigate all the current laws to see if we don't need anymore..and OH my lord, I forgot to make sure that I didn't post before I had the ribbon to wrap it up!!

This was certainly a learning experience. I have acknowledged that the posters have very good logical points.

Originally Posted by deborahbroadus

It has absolutely nothing to do with anything..and no application with this thread..a simple retort to someone that said my ideads/concepts were Business 101 and I thought that was amusing.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Originally Posted by deborahbroadus

If the biggest defense against getting ripped off is research, that's the biggest defense against any kind of hurt done on the victim be it scamming, or any other crime. If it is so simple why do we need laws? Why can't eveyone just research before everything? It may prevent all the murders, (extreme example) and other kinds of crimes.

Was that really supposed to make any kind of sense or be a valid point in any way? You can easily research products and companies that offer them and find out what kind of track record and consumer satisfaction rating they have. You cant research murderers or rapists or armed robbers, or arsonists, etc. You can research crime rates though and make sure you dont move to a neighborhood that has high murder and rape and armed robbery rates. Thus lowering the potential of becoming the victim of such crimes. And when it comes to fraud and getting ripped off educating yourself is the number one way to prevent it from ever happening. Go talk to your State Attorney General's office if you dont want to believe me.

Originally Posted by deborahbroadus

Now I have read all the posts and a lot of them have good points..but if you don't want more laws, if you are advocating doing nothing at all and hoping that the radar of those that don't like reptiles passes us over, then good luck. Maybe it will.

If as Bryon said, we are already on the radar...let's keep very quiet...maybe they'll go away.

Two things here. How come in your mind the things everyone else suggests is "doing nothing" and only your suggestions are doing something?

Also, Why do you seem to think the GOV has to be responsible for making sure nothing happens to everyone? What about taking responsibility for yourself? It dont matter how many laws get passed there will always be criminals willing to break those laws.

But if we educate ourselves and do the research we can protect ourselves. That is a proven fact. A PROVEN FACT. Scammers prey on the uninformed. A PROVEN FACT. Scammers prey on those that dont educate themselves. A PROVEN FACT. Scammers prey on those that dont research a company/person before giving them their money. A PROVEN FACT. Literally 99% of fraud can be eliminated by education and research. A PROVEN FACT.

Dont take my word for it. Go to your State Attorney General's office and educate yourself.

Originally Posted by BryonsBoas

I don't run campaigns nor do I feel the need to " score ". There are folks responding to your posts with valid questions , ideas and possibilities. You either don't answer those questions or wrap yourself up in " You're trying to attack me " crap. Were you expecting everyone to jump on the bandwagon?

How are my posts encouraging no team work? I asked questions and I gave possibilities. Wasn't that something you learned in Business 101?

How encouraging is it that you give you up so easily and wrap yourself up in attacks that don't exist?

I don't think I did take a statement out of context. I think you said what you meant and generalized those that don't agree with you. YOU brought this to the table , WE are asking questions but instead of even trying to answer to answer YOU go on the defensive and call it an attack. Lets just forget that some of those that have responded have already fought regulation , that they've been around longer than both of us and have seen changes , both positive and negative. Lets overlook the remotest possibility that they may even speak from levels of experience or research that YOU haven't even touched yet.

Feel free to flop around with your idea and ignore the questions the should be asked or researched. Your idea , run with it.



Where did I say we were on the radar? Taking a comment out of context is one thing , to say someone said something they didn't is quite another. I learn more and more about you with every post.

Even if all you were looking for is federal guidelines , regulations , laws to stop scammers , it puts us on their radar. All it would need is a few reptile haters or supporters of the Humane Society of America to request a few add ons to get their vote and the hard regulation starts

Oops..read too fast and took this to mean that we were already on the radar...sorry.

I haven't even read your post fully Bryon, but I am just going to say..I do not have the answers to your questions at this time. I withdraw the idea..it was not well thought out..most ideas aren't; they get better thought out as a discussion with those of like mind continues.

I am not trying to prove I am right, nor am I trying to force an idea. Like I said before, the idea stands for flies on it's own. Either enough people like it to see possibilities or they don't.

My friends started an organization with an idea..it's now called Deaf and Hard of Hearing in Goverment. It's been going strong for a while now. It was started when someone put an idea out there and people were looking at it from the perspective of "how?" "why not" "what would be the benefit?" Another organization started by friends is National Black Deaf Advocacy. We didn't have anyone saying, NO...and actually the ones that didn't want to do it..left, they didn't try and discourage others..they just left and let the group work it out for themselves whether they would succeed or fail.

I guess what I am saying is there would have to be enough people of like mind for this idea to fly and because there obviously are not then there is no point of continuing, don't you agree? Does that mean I want everyone to jump on the bandwagon and I am wrapping myself in a cloud of hurt..no. It simply means I know when it's a lost cause.

Theme Music for this thread....

Worth the listen.

http://www.fart-fart.com/Sounds/Also...arathustra.wav

Hahaha...

eh screw it, I can't seem to get my FartMan movie to embed.

Theory and application are two very different things.

Let me ask this question deb, have you or a family member ever been held at gun point by federal wild life and FBI over a misinterpreted law?

Who is going to educate the so-called herp law enforcers? Who is going to pay the salaries for these people? Tax payers? Reptile keepers? The consumer? Oh that's what I want more tax's, and I get rear ended on many levels as a consumer, a seller, breeder, and keeper. WOO HOO sign me up!

How many folks in New York lost their ability to own a large boid when their "new laws" went into affect? Trying to undo a law is very unlikely. Bringing in more legislation makes my skin crawl.

I now live in Georgia and this state has some of the most backward laws ever. I can keep a native venomous animal, but, god forbid I get caught with a corn snake or hybridisation of said animal. Same with Eastern king snakes.

I am a server in a local diner in Pine Mountain, I always wear a snake neclklace to work. I had a couple get up and leave my table because I breed snakes. Does anyone honestly think that folks with that type of mentality want to help us legislate our hobby? Keep in mind that these are the same folks that have gassed tortoises in the name of protecting themselves from the timber rattlers and other snakes that live in their burrows. Eastern Indigo's also make home in those same burrows, have been gassed to near extinction in the wild, are federally protected, and now nearly impossible to obtain here in Georgia.

If education is the key to our survival, deb when are you going to get yours? Business education is great, however, I think that looking into the natural history of the animals that you want to protect and keep the scammers from prostituting would be a far better start. Education about the breed not just the breeders.

Reptile clubs and societies are a great way to start. Joining a herp club helps all of us at achieving the goals that we want.

Originally Posted by KelliH

Hahaha...

eh screw it, I can't seem to get my FartMan movie to embed.

I'm glad it made you laugh a little.

I'll go search the net for the fartman movies. I just love anything that has to do with a good fart. Simulated of course....unless its my own.