whos in line for a raptor

I know Kelli, I love fauna to death because of that reason. I am just getting tired of everyone being anti-something just because it stems from the hands of Tremper. If it is a valid argument then I'm all for it, hell I personaly don't agree with a good amount of things Tremper does, but I'll base those reasons on facts, not personal bias. Hell, for instance I am not to fond of NERD, but they have done a lot for the ball community and produce some kick a** morphs I wish I could. Again, I am all for questioning Tremper (or anyone for that matter), but please use some intelligence when trying to make your case. I understand I am going out on a limb here, and I understand that perhaps I am making more of this then it is, I can live with that. Again, this is not out of respect for Tremper, which I have a great deal. This is about people trying to back up their case with no facts, no first hand knowledge, and why? Simply for personal bias. If some one wants to disagree with another please, for the sake of yourself, make a valid argument, and don't make yourself look like a fool. Who knows, maybe I'm just being grumpy.

Originally Posted by KelliH

Justyn.. you know I love ya,.. but it's not a pissing contest, it's a discussion. That's why we love Fauna so much, we can have these open discussions here. Tremper puts his stuff out there on the market, he makes certain claims. That makes it an open topic for discussion. Same goes for you or me or whoever. The difference is I would be here discussing these things WITH people. And I bet so would you. I know that we are not as busy as Ron so I can understand his absence.

I think most halfway intelligent people realize the impact that Ron Tremper has made on herpetoculture. Myself, I respect him very much for many of the things he has done in a positive way for our hobby. That doesn't mean I will not question something that I do not agree with. I put no one up on a pedestel. Well, I take that back, I put no one in the reptile business up on a pedestel. No one is above questioning or discussion, Tremper, me, Bob Clark, NERD (those are just some examples off the top of my head).

I can't think of anything else to say on the matter, really.

know you have a statue of me that sits high up on a pedistal,and you look at it in amazement and say to it everynight "i want to be just like your blind ass"

No, I told you I do not put anyone in the reptile business on a pedestel!

Justyn, you are right, one should be intelligent and have some facts when discussing these things. My only real problem with him is the whole "Giants are recessive" deal but you and I have spoken about that a few times so no need to rehash it. I think that there are some "Anti-Trempers" (for lack of a better word, LOL) out there that do have some valid reasons to be, and do have facts to back that up. I am sure there are some 'Anti-KelliHers" out there as well too LOL and that is fine. Not everyone is going to like everyone else and agree with what every other breeder does.

You are right though, bashing someone for no reason, just for the sake of doing it, is wrong. But if you have a reason, well, then I guess that is a personal decision if you want to keep it to yourself or tell others about it. :eatpointe

Yeah, I have disussed the whole "giants are recessive" deal several times, and we each have our own view point with the exact same info at hand. You know I don't have a problem with your view on it and vice versa. Yes, there are a few anti-Trempers (or anyone for that matter), I guess it just got to me after reading so many posts that are anti-Tremper. I just wish the whole community was a tad bit more positive about their peers, and perhaps their relation to them. People do have good reasons to be biased (heck, I am), I don't doubt that, I just wish even with a bias they could look at all the facts and then come to a conclusion. Instead they often speak their mind prior, and I guess that gets to me. I know this is not an ideal world, but we can strive to get there. I don't mean kiss a** or anything, just tell the facts, good or bad. Guess my needless ranting will stop shorty, seems like I am doing exactly what I am against, ranting. Most of all, I guess I just don't want Fauna to turn into another kingsnake.com. Like you said, that enough, the end.

Originally Posted by KelliH

No, I told you I do not put anyone in the reptile business on a pedestel!

Justyn, you are right, one should be intelligent and have some facts when discussing these things. My only real problem with him is the whole "Giants are recessive" deal but you and I have spoken about that a few times so no need to rehash it. I think that there are some "Anti-Trempers" (for lack of a better word, LOL) out there that do have some valid reasons to be, and do have facts to back that up. I am sure there are some 'Anti-KelliHers" out there as well too LOL and that is fine. Not everyone is going to like everyone else and agree with what every other breeder does.

You are right though, bashing someone for no reason, just for the sake of doing it, is wrong. But if you have a reason, well, then I guess that is a personal decision if you want to keep it to yourself or tell others about it. :eatpointe

Originally Posted by KelliH

I am sure there are some 'Anti-KelliHers" out there as well too LOL and that is fine. Not everyone is going to like everyone else and agree with what every other breeder does.

No way!!!!!!!!!! You seem to have a very good heart Kelli........ and anyone who is "Anti-KelliHers" needs their head examined.

As far as Tremper goes, he told me that the gene is recessive....... He said he has Two males and a few Het females. I don't think he would want this to turn into another "Giant" situation, so he must be telling the truth.

Matt

i believe matt is correct to a point but let me say one thing we ALL make mistakes and in ron trempers case he has been doing this for over 25 years and to be quite honest with you he hasnt made that many mistakes in 25 years no one is perfect and he has probably done a million or so transactions with people you cant expect every single one to go exactly as planned but i am sure he will rectify any problem you may have with his animals if given the chance to like i am sure almost any reputable breeder should and as far as his prices go he has dropped his prices for new morphs 1000 dollars isnt bad compared to 2G for a male and 1G for a female albino back in 1999

just my 2 cents and i hope everyone is doing well with this new breeding season upon us

Originally Posted by groovygeckos

last ron told me about the eye-color , it was likely "co-dominant" ,and "he was doing more test breeding" so i personally want to be buying a male

So one person has been told it was recessive and one person has been told its 'likely codom'

Originally Posted by MattP

No way!!!!!!!!!! You seem to have a very good heart Kelli........ and anyone who is "Anti-KelliHers" needs their head examined.

As far as Tremper goes, he told me that the gene is recessive....... He said he has Two males and a few Het females. I don't think he would want this to turn into another "Giant" situation, so he must be telling the truth.

Matt

Here's the one where he claims its recessive.... just getting them both on the same page.


I'm pretty secure that this information backs up my previous arguments-
The trait is unproven from a financial standpoint, and there is a premium to be paid for it.
It makes the difference in seeing a financial return within one generation or the second generation of offspring. It's the difference between how saturated the market will be in one year versus two years.

It makes the difference in seeing a financial return within one generation or the second generation of offspring

true but this trade is a "gamble" no matter how you cut it .

It's the difference between how saturated the market will be in one year versus two years.

so why market something as co-dom only to have everyone and their brother mass produce it ?

last ron told me about the eye-color , it was likely "co-dominant" ,and "he was doing more test breeding" so i personally want to be buying a male

OK let me add to this , i was told privately about this over 2 months ago BEFORE the RAPTORs that will be available had even hatched ,and im sure it is possible he has found otherwise by now.

Exactly.... why market as something that indicates the following year other people will have it available in quantity?

Instead market as something that will take two generations to reproduce, so the desire to be first to market overwhelms potential customers into rushing to buy from him this year at a premium.


And yes, this argument is not based on any certainty. However we effectively saw the same thing happen with the giants. I bought my giant for dirt cheap, pennies on the dollar, in comparison to what Tremper was advertising them as when he was claiming they were a recessive trait. And everyone bought multiple giants or worse yet "hets" thinking it was recessive and paid a small fortune unnecessarily.....

For those that aren't aware because some obviously aren't (or just blinded by a dislike for Tremper) he has released at least one female APTOR and female hets. Which, the last time I checked made it possible to produce APTOR babies in the 1st year.
As for the RAPTORs, everything is complete speculation and nothing but a judgement based on someone over something that hasn't even happened. Is this what we could call the reptile trades version of Minority Report?