DWARF Leopard Geckos???

I have SEEN dwarf leopard geckos. They are not just small geckos, they are dwarfs!!! They have a bull-dogish appearance and have very short, fat tails... like Alice said, "smaller, squattier looking leos with the compressed tails". The breeder who had them tried to breed them to find out if it was a genetic trait or just an anomaly, but never did get any viable eggs if I remember correctly.

I see nothing wrong with breeding small geckos as long as they are healthy and at a correct breeding age. Heck, I still have two of the first jungles... and the male weighs 48 grams and the female weighs 38-40 grams. They produce about 4-6 clutches per year, maintain their weight, and the babies grow into larger geckos. Geckos were just smaller back when I got them!

As far as the differences in head shapes, many long-timers can identify a certain breeder's stock by head and body shape! For example, the original SHCT's from Ray Hine tend to be longer and leaner than the SHT's that they have been crossed with to produce the SHTxCT's everyone seems to crave.

When these topics come up, I like to throw in a a suggestion for a great book, "The Lizards of Iran" by Dr. Steven C. Anderson, as well as a link to the following websites. Perhaps it is bogus, but I believe it legitimate. At least it gives us ideas on the physical appearance and origins of some of the various Eublepharis Macularius strains and/or sub-species.

LEOPARD GECKOS OF THE WORLD
AFGHAN GECKOS

Stina,
How can you say 95% of all mutations are fatal..... Everything is mutating and evolving all the time.... That is just silly..... Do you somehow have an exact number for the amount of mutation that go on in every species around the world???? I would be happy with a number of mutations in one species.... There is no way to give a % on a number that does not exist......
Also it is silly to think that small size would not mean more predators..... It is simple science..... Alot more animals can eat a 4 to 5 inch adult than a 8 to 9 inch adult...... Sure a dwarf leo can hide but they need to come out and eat..... When they do, there would be a much bigger number of animals that would be able to over power them and eat them..... I do not know how to make it anymore simple and I am actually suprized I needed to explain it.....

Hey Marcia, I was driving down this dirt road way up in the woods the other day and I met this lumber jack walking out with his chainsaw. Well after a few minutes of small talk, he suddenly told me that he has been looking for a leopard gecko that looked like his bulldog "Guiedo" , he also liked them with short fat tails like his dogs tail. I told him that I had not seen any like that, at which he explained that they were "cutting edge" Geckos and all his lumber jack & Biker friends had them! Well after a bit we said our goodbyes and headed off. As I looked in the mirror I noticed him climbing into his old truck and on the bumper was a sticker that said "Muntant ninja geckos rule"! Can you believe that? Sounds like your way behind the times girl! Just think of all those missed sales you are experiancing!....the moral of the story is "If you seek out the mutant you will never be out of wood"

Ok what were we talking about?

How can I say that?....have you ever taken a genetics course?....we don't even see most spontaneous mutations because they are fatal long before birth... Yes random mutations occur constantly...but they are also nearly all fatal!...seriously go read a genetics book or talk to a genetics professor...

Ok gregg...here's one for you! What if the larger geckos can't get there "fat asses" in the hole (or whatever) but the smaller ones can! and swiftly escape? HUH!....oh I never thought of it that way...Hmmmmmmmm???????????

Oh...and baby geckos are a heck of a lot smaller than dwarfs....there would be no species if they were all eaten by these smaller predators you are speaking of....

Let me start off by giving you the brief history of these animals. These animals came from a very good friend named Chris Harney. She is a great person who I have nothing but respect for. These are her Geckos, and I am simply selling them for her. For those of you who do not know Chris, she has been very successful in breeding amelanistic Knob-tailed Geckos, and she was one of the first people to get in on the amelanistic fat-tailed Gecko project. And yes, she also bred Leopard Geckos. Chris has also had great success with Bearded Dragons and, the very rare in captivity, Gidggie Skink Egernia stokesii. Chris has also done extraordinarily well breding Xenagama taylori. Because of her vast experience, she has been sited numerous times in Dick Bartlett’s Xenagama Book, and in Reptiles Magazine article on Xenagama. You would see a lot more of her, but she keeps a very low profile, and does her best to avoid the lime-light. She is probably going to kill me for this.

Anyway, I have taken some time to discuss the history of these animals with Chris so that I can pass on the info to all those who are interested. Chris got her first “dwarf” female form Julie Bergman. I do not know where Julie got her, or if she even produced her. As an adult, this little female weighed in at 50 grams. Chris bred it to one of her normal males, and these “dwarfs” are the result from that breeding. When Chris produced these new “dwarfs” Julie was very excited that the trait could be passed down, and wanted to buy them back. Chris did not want to sell them at the time, but has since decided to get out of Geckos all together, in order to focus on her Indigo Snakes and her Shingleback Skinks. Now, That is what I know, and anything else is speculation. I am not a Leopard gecko breeder, and frankly, I have no desire to be one. I mean no insult by saying this, but they are just not a species that I want to work with. That being said, I think they are a very interesting species, and that their popularity in the hobby is a direct result of the many mutations/defects that they display in captive populations. I also really do find it very Ironic when individuals get upset about the idea of perpetuating such a defect/mutation while they encourage others that they deem desirable just because they are pretty… I also find it very interesting that people that do not even know me have come here and made judgments about me and my character without ever talking to me, or doing business with me, or even looking me up here on the BOI. Let me address just a few points that I have seen here. I will quote people in red, and if your name was not on your post, I will add it. I will continue in black.

“Just to play Devils Advocate... I'm not positive, but isn't the Tremper Giant a mutation? Instead of small, they're large. So if there are no health issues or if the dwarf leos are not in any pain, Does it still make it a bad thing? I'm not tahing any sides here, just replying with a thought.”
-Jason

To answer your question, if for captivity, I would have to say no. I also appreciate your objective attitude toward the subject.

“And yeah I agree they must be runts or suffered malnutrition at some point in thier lives. Of course that one female doesn't look too starved now. That is some of the largest fat pockets behind the front legs I've seen on a leo. Maybe a bit too fat for a breeding leo?”
Melissa

Humm, runts that are able to reproduce the same trait? Pretty interesting… As for malnutrition, it sounds like you just talked yourself out of what you just said… That first little female is quite fat, and if Chris has one fault, it would be that she tends to over feed some of her more ravenous feeders. This often results in her more aggressive feeders being somewhat overweight. Those Geckos were fed more than their share, and to elude otherwise without having anything to base your suspicions on is really not very logical.

“I think that this is a moral issue. I think that we breed geckos that have mutations or defects to gain a desireable trait. I do not see this as a desireable trait at all though. I would want to know the long term health of such an animal. I certainly would'nt want to unknowingly purchase a normal appearing gecko that came from a pairing of "dwarf" geckos.”
Jeremy Letkey

That is totally your prerogative, and it is fine as long as you realize these are your thoughts, and that others may feel different. There those that do not like the breeding of color mutations, but no matter how badly they want it stop, people are still going to breed albinos and the like. It is just a fact that they have to deal with.

”In the hands of a reputeable breeder this might be acceptable. They would have to do a long term study and make sure that the geckos were healthy.”
Jeremy Letkey.

Has this type of study been done on the Giants before they went out into the hobby? Honestly, how is that any different? It has been proven that gigantism is a defect in many species that has detrimental affects on the specimens that are affected by this defect/mutation/morph. Call it what you like.

”However in the wrong hands there is too much potential for things to go bad.
So i guess that I am with you on this Marcia. I don't think that these geckos should be bred for the simple fact that I wouldn't want the gene pool accidentally poluted.”
Jeremy Letkey.

Too late Jeremy, it has been "polluted" for quite some time now. You are either a purest or you are not. You can’t have it both ways.

“In my experience, it is not a genetic defect, but rather just leos that had their growth stunted. How is this done, well, low temps and/or improper amounts of food. Large loads of parasites might also help out.”
Justyn Miller

It sounds like maybe you should brush up on your husbandry skills.

“This can cause serious problems if you wish to breed the animal in question. Females are likely to become egg bound, they are also likely to drop massive amounts of weight during egg production. She may not be able to recover and die shortly there after. As you can see, bad news!”
Justyn Miller

How do you figure? Have you bred these specific animals? What experience do you have with this line of geckos? From what you have said you seem to have at least some experience with stunted animals and you seem to know how to get them to be stunted. These Geckos are small for a totally different reason, so how is any of what you are saying relevant to them?

“I for one would seriously take a look at the person offering them, and consider their ethics involved with selling animals.”
Justyn Miller

Maybe you should go to the BOI and do exactly do just that. My name is James Wilson.

“Perhaps they are simply misguided or ignorant, but something is currently wrong with their mode of thought.”
Justyn Miller

Wow! It is ironic that the expert on how to stunt animals is saying this. You have some nerve coming here on a Reptile forum and attacking my character and coming to these conclusions. Without knowing anything about these animals in question, the person that produced them, or the pperson that is selling them. You sure know how to make friends.

“what it probably means is they are not genetically strong (they are runts, sheesh).”
Laura P

Probably??? “Probably” means absolutely nothing. You might want to just stick with the facts.

“I would never breed them. but someone will.”
Laura P

Someone already did.

“Their mode of thought is "quick money"...
Laura P.

How do you figure that? Since I am not making anything on their sale, it is pretty darn funny that you say that. Actually it is not funny at all. It is a sad testament to your character. I represented these animals exactly as Chris described them to me. My mode of thought was honesty, and to do a favor for a friend. Do you know me? Have we had any dealings of any kind? If you did you would not say what you just did. I have a phrase for you: “internet bravado” Shall I return the “Sheesh”…

”If someone stumbled on a colony of dwarf leos in the wild, living and reproducing and genetically healthy (proof by Darwin) then I'd say COOL!!!! I'll buy me some.”
Laura P.

Actually, there is a population of very small Leopard Geckos in the wild…

“Yes, we have created genetic mutations in the evolution of the Leopard Gecko, but for the most part these traits are desireable.”
Marcia

So I take it that you are the person that is to decide which of these unnatural mutations is desirable and which is not. You can decide that for you, but you cannot decide that for everyone else in the hobby.

“I honestly feel that 'we' have an ethical responsibility to improve the species, and not exploit the undesireable faults. Irresponsibly promoting these traits as "an interesting breeding project" just plain old scares me!”
Marcia

No matter how you slice it, the fact is that none of these “desirable traits” are good for the species. They may be great for the hobby, but not the species. Why do you breed morphs? Is it because you feel you are improving the species? Let me tell you, you are not. You are improving their popularity, and their monetary value (and I think that is great), but not the species. All of these mutations and traits are “undesirable faults”. Who are you to argue with millions of years of evolution and delude yourself into thinking that you are somehow improving the species? Honestly, it sounds like total hypocrisy to me. Like I said, I am fine with all the morphs/defects/mutations/genetic flaws in regard to color, pattern, and size, but I do not think I am improving any species when I breed for these traits.

“I think you should honestly. He'd be eatting his words as well”
Kimberly Fuentes

How do you figure that Kimberly? Have you read the whole thread? If you do choose to, you may want to get your fork ready. There certainly seems to be more than one opinion here.

“I knew that would be their defense. Marcia yes send him a link. But again it wont deter him - the people on fauna are not his target audience. He's looking for someone a bit more naive who will think they are on to the next big new leo morph.”
Laura P.

What are you some kind of psychic? Is this how you know so much about my character and mode of thought without ever meeting me or speaking with me? My argument is quite valid, and what I was looking for was the best way I could represent these animals as honestly as I could.

“Yes, but gigantism it is not a defect. Dwarfism IS.”
Marcia

I disagree. They both are defects/mutations. I will say this, I agree with you in that there is most likely something genetic at play with all three of these geckos.

I don't know about genetics in Leos. But Giantism is a genetic defect like dwarfism in humans.
Sorry side question, is the fat female in the one pic too fat to safely breed or is that normal for a breeding leo?
Melissa M. Frankford

I agree with you on on your first point, and your second question is a good one. To answer you, I would say that after listening to some of the different opinions here from experienced breeders, I would say she definetly could use a diet before any breeding attempts should be made. Females that are too fat do not make good breeders with any species especially reptiles.

“defect - an imperfection that impairs worth or utility; a lack of something necessary for completeness, adequacy, or perfection.”
Marcia

By your own definition, many of these color morphs are defects. “a lack of something necessary for completeness, adequacy, or perfection.” How about a lack of pigment, or pattern? Sorry, but in the wild these are defects, as a species, they are defects. In captivity, they also happens to be defects that we like because they are different and they are pretty. I am as guilty as the next guy. Marcia, I respect your opinions, but you need to realize that you do not speak for everyone, or the hobby. You speak for yourself. I will also tell you that I resent the way you have tried to suck me into some kind of debate with you. I came here because my integrity was being attacked, and that should not have happened. I feel that the way you went about this was unprofessional, childish and uncalled for. I have no problem with you discussing these Geckos (that is why this forum is here, but my character should not be up for discussion, and you were right there stirring the pot. You do not have to agree with me, but you should still give me the respect that I deserve. The same goes to any of the other blind followers that decided to join in on the Witch-hunt that took place on this thread’s first 3 pages.

frankly, I have concerns re the Giant leo morph too. giantism in other species goes along with that inability to stop growing (technical term to be supplied by someone with better memory) that is very definitely a health risk. tiger/lion crosses I believe have that problem. and human Giants have short live expectancy. that has to be a negative thing no matter who's asking.”
Laura P

Well, thank you for leaving my integrity out of your cross hairs on that one. And I would say I agree. I do not mind actual debate, but you should have left my character out of it. You simply do not know me, and you never made an effort to do so.

In conclusion, I totally respect anyone’s opinion that may not personally like the idea of keeping a dwarf Leopard Gecko. But, that does not mean that it is bad for the hobby. Some people like albinos, and some people do not. I have a friend that totally dislikes the Blazing Blizzards. Does that make them bad for the hobby? No, it makes them bad for him. I hope I have answered your questions about these Geckos, and I would ask that people try to learn a little something about me before attacking my character in the future. It only serves to hurt this forum in the long run. If anyone does have any issues with my ethics, may I suggest that you take them to the BOI and address them there. I will say that this discussion has improved a lot toward the end of this thread. It is just too bad it had to start out with a lynch mob mentality.

Well thought out post James. Good points. I agree with a lot of that. Does seem to be some hypocrisy or at least judgment, that says I'm okay with this morph (genetic anomaly? defect?) but this one I'm not.

Nice to see someone that can defend themselves without making themselves look questionable! (...I'm sure I would have...lol) My question for you James is about the breeding. Did the mother of the two leos in question actually have the same traits as them? Have the two of them specifically been bred? Has the mother had any other offspring...viable or not? Did she have any trouble laying? How old is she (I'm just wondering if there is a shorter lifespan than normal)? I'm just curious...I'm not taking any stance on the "dwarf morph" until I know a lot more about it!

it is really kind of a bummer for me. I am dyslexic, and it took me 5 hours to write that post, and I really resent that I was put in a position where it was necessary for me to do it. I guess I just did not realize that the other fauna forums had a BOI flavor to them. At least on the BOI, people are asked to post full names, and stand behind what they say with some sort of evidence. Maybe I am just being a baby...Anyway, thanks again for your comments. I feel a bit like a fish out of water here.